An Invasion of MMR/Vaccine Misinformation
To read an article about the MMR vaccine and autism in today’s Telegraph, you’d think there was plenty of reason for the “debate” to be “reignited” thanks to Senator John McCain talking about an “autism epidemic”; recent statements about US health officials being too quick to dismiss arguments about vaccine as a cause of autism by Dr. Bernardine Healy; the case of Hannah Poling, in which the government conceded that vaccines “aggravated” an underlying mitochondrial disorder in Hannah and led to symptoms of autism; and a recent poster presentation at IMFAR about a study in which 13 vaccinated monkeys showed “increased aggression, impaired cognitive skills and developmental delay” after receiving vaccines.
Here’s what the Telegraph article doesn’t note:
Sen. McCain was widely criticized by scientists about his comment that the increase in autism is due to vaccines.
There is a lot of uncertainty and even controversy over how common mitochondrial disorders are in autistic children. In the case of Hannah Poling, it’s necessary to note that the government did NOT concede that vaccines cause autism.
The poster presentation is by Laura Hewitson, who (along with her husband, Dan Hollenbeck) is a petitioner in a Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. (And bloggers Larry Arnold and Mike Stanton comment on the notion of “conflict of interest.)
Though when journalist David Kirby speaks on June 4th in the UK, these things may not be mentioned: This American invasion of further evidence for the MMR/vaccine-autism debate is a lot less bullet-proof than the Telegraph suggests.
Mike Stanton of Action for Autism provides some more information and background behind Kirby’s visit to the UK.
191 opinions for An Invasion of MMR/Vaccine Misinformation
Bonnie Sayers
May 26, 2008 at 2:09 pm
I have been living with children on the autism spectrum for ten years and never heard of mitochondrial disorder until that case.
Emily
May 26, 2008 at 5:13 pm
It’s going to take an outbreak and deaths from one of the vaccinated diseases before people stop this nonsense. Every false word written or spoken in support of a “link” is one more step toward disaster.
Gaye
May 26, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Emily, even that will not wake people nor the pharmaceutical companies up, Hitler said, “what luck for leaders that people don’t think”. If we can have world wide Muslim violence where Muslims themselves do not outrage against the world wide teaching of death to the infidels done by their clerics/Imams teachers and leaders, then how can we expect a pharmaceutical company which makes trillions out of our misery to admit that it is wrong. However if there was one death from a natural product it would be whipped of the shelves in a second.
My husband has been a teacher for 42 years and principal of much of that, and being a Principal he would get to hear of families who have problems in this area but his first autistic child was 23 years ago. They say that there has always been the odd child in the world who has autism and that I do believe, but because of the poisons in immunisation does immunisation drastically raise the odds, which leads me to think that autism might be a condition of poisons picked up somehow during or before conception and development
Gaye
May 26, 2008 at 6:46 pm
If Sen. McCain has come out and said immunization can perhaps cause autism, I doubt he will become president, the pharmecutical companies will see to that using their trillions to destroy him..
Look up the The Pharmaceutical Drug Racket - Part One.
Plus it is reported that we now have a vast array of pharmaceuticals - including antibiotics, anti-convulsants, mood stabilizers and sex hormones - have been found in the drinking water supplies of at least 41 million Americans, an Associated Press investigation shows.
The presence of so many prescription drugs - and over-the-counter medicines like acetaminophen and ibuprofen - in so much of our drinking water is heightening worries among scientists of long-term consequences to human health.
In the course of a five-month inquiry, the AP discovered that drugs have been detected in the drinking water supplies of 24 major metropolitan areas - from Southern California to Northern New Jersey, from Detroit to Louisville, Ky.
And bottled water isn’t any better than tap water.”
Emily
May 26, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Gaye, you have misunderstood me.
“It’s going to take an outbreak and deaths from one of the vaccinated diseases before people stop this nonsense. Every false word written or spoken in support of a “link” is one more step toward disaster.”
It’s going to take an outbreak of one of the diseases against which we vaccinate before people will finally realize the consequences of this behavior of insisting on a link between vaccines and autism when there is no scientific evidence whatsoever to support it. This insistence on a link in the face of all evidence to the contrary is going to lead to the deaths of children from these diseases because of a drop in vaccinations and a loss of herd immunity, and every word that is written alleging this false link is a step toward that outcome. It’s short-sighted, ill-informed, irresponsible behavior that nothing short of the scenario I’ve described will apparently stop. As long as people insist on remaining underinformed or willfully ignorant, as long as they block progress by sticking to this nonstarter of a hypothesis, we move inexorably toward that outcome, and we move no closer to understanding the true mechanisms of autism.
Science, including abundant and ever-growing genetic evidence, does not support the hypothesis that vaccines or mercury et al. are responsible. This vaccines/mercury/MMR crap is a deadly dog-and-pony show with people like Kirby as the self-aggrandizing ringmasters. I’m personally sick of it, but the human capacity for willful ignorance and indefensible, angry posturing is apparently bottomless–thus the show goes on, afflicting theoretically otherwise sensible people like a contagion. Wish there were a vaccine for that.
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 26, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Unfortunately, Sen Obama has also made a statement about vaccines and autism—-not at all supported by the science.
http://www.autismvox.com/another-way-to-access-the-candidates-the-vaccine-autism-question/
Monika
May 27, 2008 at 5:56 am
Have you seen this new weblog? A retired American epidemiologist who points out mistakes in studies that claim to prove an “autism epidemic”. He has already written a series of interesting postings, beginning with “There is no autism epidemic. It’s an artifact:”
http://epiwonk.com/?p=38
Vicky
May 27, 2008 at 7:34 am
Emily - you are wrong on so many counts. Almost all of the diseases for which our children are currently vaccinated were almost completely eliminated before vaccination began and are much more strongly associated with improved sanitation and nutrition. (The evidence is out there in public domain).
In some cases, incidences of diseases have actually fallen when uptake of vaccination fell (eg whooping cough (Pertussis) vaccination in UK in 1970s).
There is no real information about vaccine damage because there are no long-term studies looking at the incidence of adverse reactions. All other drugs have to undergo rigorous trials which examine reaction over years. Vaccination is allowed to be exempt from such scrutiny because we are told it is a ‘proven’ medium. Consequently vaccinations are regularly contaminated with animal viruses (because they are grown on cells from monkeys and chickens) and human viruses ( because some are also grown on human cells from aborted foetuses). Adverse reactions are only acknowledged if they are reported within 72 hours of exposure. Who defined this time limit and with what justification? It can only be to eliminate the genuine claims of parents whose children have more chronic effects with slower onset.
To be questioning of authority is not as you put it ’short-sighted, ill-informed and irresponsible’. To accept blindly what you are told is however: the ‘reccent’ study which ‘undermined’ the vaccination/autism connection was SERIOUSLY flawed. It imposed unreasonable symptom criteria on the sample group so that the findings were skewed beyond any use (they even admitted this in their findings) but they relied on people to read the headlines and not question the detail. It appears that is exactly what you have done.
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 27, 2008 at 7:51 am
@Vicky,
You noted that “Almost all of the diseases for which our children are currently vaccinated were almost completely eliminated before vaccination began and are much more strongly associated with improved sanitation and nutrition.”
What are some of your sources for this?
Gaye
May 27, 2008 at 8:20 am
All through history there have been epidemics come and go, and we will have more. Emily, it is strange that I am reading this over the past couple of days as today I came across a lovely woman who was vaccinated against polio during the epidemic, and her brother got polio from the vaccine and he got it badly.
I strongly disagree with you, only hrs after my grand daughter was immunized she stopped breathing and went blue in my arms but if she had of been in here bed it would only have been counted as a cot death. she was revived a few times after that until she was counted free after a few months..
you say that there is no evidence and as in our case and another friend who also had an melanoma on the site of here immunisation and the Dr said that he wouldn’t be reporting it, if they don’t report these things then there will never be any evidence but having said that I am going to in close what many specialists and Drs say..
Doctor Richard Moskowitz MD said, “I have always felt that the attempt to eradicate entire microbial species from the biosphere must inevitably upset the balance of Nature in fundamental ways that we can barely imagine. Such concerns loom ever larger as new vaccines continue to be developed for no better reason than that we have the technical capacity to make them, thus demonstrating our right and power as a civilization to manipulate the evolutionary process itself.”
DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION
“There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good.”
Dr J Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food
and Drug Administration
More next post
Gaye
May 27, 2008 at 8:23 am
“The greatest threat of childhood disease lies in the dangerous and
ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunisation.”
Dr R. Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)
“In our opinion, there is now sufficient evidence of immune malfunction following current vaccination programmes to anticipate growing public demands for research investigation into alternative methods of prevention of infectious disease.”
Dr’s H. Buttram and J. Hoffman (Vaccinations and Immune Malfunctions)
“All vaccination has the effect of directing the three values of the blood
into or toward the zone characteristics of cancer and leukemia…Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukaemia.”
Professor L.C. Vincent, Founder of Bioelectronics
“Every vaccine carries certain hazards and can produce inward reactions in some people…in general, there are more vaccine complications than is generally appreciated.”
Professor George Dick, London University
“Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection.”
Dr A. Sabin, developer of the Oral Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)
“In addition to the many obvious cases of mortality from these practises,
there are also long-term hazards which are almost impossible to estimate
accurately…the inherent danger of of all vaccine procedures should be a
deterrent to their unnecessary or unjustifiable use.”
Sir Graham Wilson (The Hazards of Immunisation)
“Laying aside the very real possibility that the various vaccines are
contaminated with animal viruses and may cause serious illness later in life (multiple sclerosis, cancer, leukaemia, etc) we must consider whether the vaccines really work for their intended purpose.”
Dr W.C. Douglas (Cutting Edge, May 1990)
“The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA
With reference to Smallpox;
“Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error and
ignorance, it should have no place in either hygiene or medicine…Believe not in vaccination, it is a world-wide delusion, an unscientific practise, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by tears and sorrow without end.”
Professor Chas Rauta, University of Perguia, Italy , (New York Medical Journal July 1899)
“Vaccination does not protect, it actually renders its subjects more
susceptible by depressing vital power and diminishing natural resistance, and millions of people have died of smallpox which they contracted after being vaccinated.”
Dr J.W. Hodge (The Vaccination Superstition)
“It is nonsense to think that you can inject pus - and it is usually from the pustule end of the dead smallpox victim … it is unthinkable that you can inject that into a little child and in any way improve its health. What is true of vaccination is exactly as true of all forms of serum immunisation, if we could by any means build up a natural resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would applaud it to the echo, but we can’t do it.”
Dr William Howard Hay (lecture to Medical Freedom Society, June 25th 1937)
“Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.”
Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation
With reference to Whooping Cough;
“There is no doubt in my mind that in the UK alone some hundreds, if not thousands of well infants have suffered irreparable brain damage needlessly and that their lives and those of their parents have been wrecked in consequence.”
Professor Gordon Stewart, University of Glasgow (Here’s Health, March 1980)
“My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the
nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the US each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given to children. The pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine is the most likely villain , but it could also be one or more of the others.”
Dr R Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)
“The worst vaccine of all is the whooping cough vaccine…it is responsible for a lot of deaths and for a lot of infants suffering irreversible brain damage..”
Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Author and Vaccine Researcher (Natural Health Convention, Stanwell Tops, NSW, Australia 1987)
With reference to Polio;
“Many here voice a silent view that the Salk and Sabin polio vaccine, being made of monkey kidney tissue has been directly responsible for the major increase in leukaemia in this country.”
Dr F. Klenner, Polio Researcher, USA
“No batch of vaccine can be proved to be safe before it is given to
children”
Surgeon General Leonard Scheele (AMA Convention 1955, USA)
“Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent…”
Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)
Perhaps looking these up below is a good idea.
GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN’T SAVE US
HISTORICAL FACTS EXPOSING THE DANGERS AND INEFFECTIVENESS OF VACCINES
DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION
WHY VACCINES ARE INEFFECTIVE
WHY VACCINES ARE HARMFUL
WHY VACCINATION CONTINUES
THE BENEFICIAL NATURE OF CHILDHOOD INFECTION
HEALTH - THE ONLY IMMUNITY
THE HOPEWOOD CHILDREN - AUSTRALIA’S HEALTHIEST KIDS
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 27, 2008 at 10:30 am
Thanks for those references. Are there published peer-reviewed studies, though, that contain the information you note about epidemics? The quotations are interesting, but they are not the same as citing a scientific study. Thank you.
Mary
May 27, 2008 at 10:54 am
Preach on Vicky - they will continue to refuse to believe it. IT does not suit their purposes to allow that they could be wrong about vaccines. Because if they are wrong about vaccines that shakes everything else they know right down to the core.
I was wrong about vaccines. I was a young mother who trusted that vaccines were truly what they are pumped up to be. After two vaccine injured children, a husband with hearing loss, my own issues with inflammation (husband and I were/are military) and my mother’s death from ALS that has been linked to mercury and formaldyhyde (sp) over exposure, I’m not too proud to say - I WAS WRONG ABOUT VACCINES.
They are dangerous, they are unneeded and they are the worst marketing scam to ever hit humankind.
It took me literally ten seconds to come up with these graphs online - I suppose that one or all of the naysayers will debate them on the basis of ??
http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html
http://www.healthsentinel.com/graphs.php
http://www.whale.to/a/graphs.html
I also find it hard to believe that I’m debating with people who haven’t even done this much research on their own that they need ME to find them these very blatant and convincing graphs of disease.
WAKE UP people - vaccines are a trillion dollar a year business world wide. What will it take for you to pull your heads out and realize that it’s MONEY talking, not safety, not disease, not your best interests?
You know what would take care of disease?? Vitamin C - Vitamin A - selenium - clean water - clean housing - sanitation - sleep - a loving home and other COMMON SENSE factors to life. NOT VACCINES.
Mary
May 27, 2008 at 11:00 am
Kristina,
Do you really, truly believe that scientific studies aren’t fallible? Do you really, truly think that someone being paid by a vaccine maker is able to be fair and without bias in their findings?
Have you read: The Virus and the Vaccine?
Have you read anything that wasn’t promoting vaccines?
Have you even been through the tons and tons of evidence online on sites that aren’t by the CDC and FDA?
Have you read “Discarded Science” to see how many things we “used” to believe in but later looked like fools for believing in?
Do you really and truly think that your education and what you believe trumps a parent standing over their dead child HOURS or even MINUTES after a vaccine?
Do you really truly believe that babies born to non-Hep B mothers need a VACCINE hours after birth when their own immune systems haven’t even kicked in?
Do you really and truly think that formula and scientists know more than mothers and millions of years of evolution?
Breast feed your babies
Don’t vaccinate your babies
Feed your babies REAL food devoid of toxins and fake ingreidents they are trying to feed us
Make your babies home life without discord, smoking, drugs or stress
Get sunlight
Exercise
IT’s that simple most days…………. vaccines are a joke.
Emily
May 27, 2008 at 2:34 pm
I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it again, just for the bats that have left the belfry here:
It’s going to take an outbreak of one of the diseases against which we vaccinate before people will finally realize the consequences of this behavior of insisting on a link between vaccines and autism when there is no scientific evidence whatsoever to support it. This insistence on a link in the face of all evidence to the contrary is going to lead to the deaths of children from these diseases because of a drop in vaccinations and a loss of herd immunity, and every word that is written alleging this false link is a step toward that outcome. It’s short-sighted, ill-informed, irresponsible behavior that nothing short of the scenario I’ve described will apparently stop. As long as people insist on remaining underinformed or willfully ignorant, as long as they block progress by sticking to this nonstarter of a hypothesis, we move inexorably toward that outcome, and we move no closer to understanding the true mechanisms of autism.
Science, including abundant and ever-growing genetic evidence, does not support the hypothesis that vaccines or mercury et al. are responsible. This vaccines/mercury/MMR crap is a deadly dog-and-pony show with people like Kirby as the self-aggrandizing ringmasters. I’m personally sick of it, but the human capacity for willful ignorance and indefensible, angry posturing is apparently bottomless–thus the show goes on, afflicting theoretically otherwise sensible people like a contagion. Wish there were a vaccine for that.
I find this especially precious:
“Do you really and truly think that formula and scientists know more than mothers and millions of years of evolution?
Breast feed your babies
Don’t vaccinate your babies
Feed your babies REAL food devoid of toxins and fake ingreidents they are trying to feed us
Make your babies home life without discord, smoking, drugs or stress
Get sunlight
Exercise
IT’s that simple most days…………. vaccines are a joke.”
That “simple formula” and reliance on “evolution” (whatever you think that is) resulted in infant mortality rates of 50% or greater throughout most of human history.
Again, if you want to persist in being ill-informed, that’s your business. I’m not sure which is more annoying–the willful ignorance or this flood of emotion with the ALL CAPS and the exclamation points, ad nauseum. Noise noise noise.
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 27, 2008 at 2:52 pm
I think we only need to consider the 12 cases of measles in San Diego to see what happens without vaccines.
Norah
May 27, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Plenty of polio cases in our villages still among the people who don’t vaccinate for religious reasons. Quite a few of them bear lifelong results of having had the illness, with a big chance of a kind of relapse of some symptoms some 15-30 years later, which means they again have a chance of dying. Others are dead. Their water must not have been as clean as ours (yeah right, the lived down the same street). Or maybe they didn’t take enough vitamine C. I’m sure they’d love to hear that. Oh yeah, especially that maybe their homes aren’t, you know, loving and without discord. Must have been all the drugs they took! They actually did everything on that little list.
Jen
May 27, 2008 at 3:20 pm
We live in Canada, where the Hep B vaccine is not given until after the child turns 12, and where pediatric vaccines have not contained Thiomersal since 2002, with the exception of the influenza vaccine (which he has not received, and which I did not receive when pregnant or nursing). In addition, he was exhibiting autistic traits before receiving his MMR vaccine at one year, and did not have a history of ear infections or other illnesses, which would indicate a suppressed or damaged immune system, nor did he ever have a fever following any of his immunizations. Therefore, I have to conclude that, at least in the case of my child, vaccines did not contribute to his autism. It’s not a matter of “refusing to believe”, it’s a matter of listening to the evidence.
Emily
May 27, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Norah, they probably didn’t get enough sun.
Also, shhhh. Don’t tell anyone, but selenium is toxic to the thyroid, among other adverse endocrine effects, and a semi-metal; vitamin A can kill you, and vitamin C in large doses causes abortions. Shhhh. I’d type it in all caps, but the bats might see.
Chuck
May 27, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Emily,
The US has an outbreak of one of the diseases against which we vaccinate every year and according to CDC statistics 36,000 die. If people don’t appreciate the consequences of this, then what will 64 non-lethal cases of anything do?
All of the most recent cases of measles have been imported so herd immunity has become irrelevant since “Around the world in 80 days” has become “Around the world in 40 hours”. How many vaccine preventable illnesses are contagious and not symptomatic for 36 hours or less? From where you are, do you think you could reach most major population center on this planet in 36 hours?
Vicky
May 27, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Kristina - I was referring to the official UK government statistics of disease incidence: HMSO (Her Majesty’s Stationery Office) ‘Immunisations against infectious disease: Incidence of infectious illness from the 1950s and mortality rates from infectious illnesses from the 1850s’. The graphs contained within strongly mirror the information contained in the references from Mary above but to put it on a plate:
The death rate from measles in 1850 in the UK was around 1150 per million children. In 1955 it was down to less than 10 per million children. Vaccination was introduced in 1968 and had NO impact on death rates from the disease at all. A similar situation exists for diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough. (In fact whooping cough incidence rose slightly after the introduction of vaccination and fell in the 1970s when a scare around its association with brain injury caused the immunisation figures to fall).
Most interestingly, is the course of scarlet fever. This disease followed the same trend of decline as all the other childhood diseases. In 1866 in the UK, 2300 children per million died of scarlet fever. By 1950 this rate had fallen to zero and fairly recently the disease in UK has been ‘downgraded’ to scarlatina because it is now so mild. THERE WAS NEVER A VACCINE FOR THIS DISEASE.
What does this tell you? We are an eternally evolving species who - given beneficial conditions in diet, environment and general well-being - will develop resistance to diseases which previously killed us. This kind of immunity occurs in the whole body, it cannot be reduced down to the existence of antibodies (which even WHO admit is not an indicator of resistance) it is an immunity which, unlike most vaccination antibodies, lasts a lifetime.
Who developed the vaccine for Bubonic Plague? Why does the common cold no longer kill us?
Allow a child to develop with a healthy Thymus Gland, undamaged by assaults on it from six weeks old. Leave its brain undamaged by encephalitis caused by formaldehyde and heavy metals. Allow its immune system to mature unfettered by vaccines contaminated by animal viruses from monkey kidneys or human viruses from aborted foetuses. You might be amazed how healthy that child will be.
Mary
May 27, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Wow.
Okay, I give. Thankfully I am very aware of what anything in lethal doses can do, even Vit. C, but clearly you don’t understand how beneficial it can be. Read more about Vitamin C that doesn’t come from the same old sources.
Bring on the measles. Do you realize that at its worst, it supposedly affected 4 Million Americans, and out of those 4 MILLION (yes, all caps, because most people stuck in a rut really like them) there were only 500 deaths. At its worst. I’m not math whiz, but I’ll take those odds with my healthy children, any day over life long RA that can do as much damage as Polio.
Children die from RA and they can die from Polio, so I ask again, what difference is it? What have we gained?
My daughter got JRA from her 1 year old MMR shots. No question, from a specialists mouth, and has to fight it off everyday of her life now. It is under control now but at one time we feared the inflammation of her organs and death.
Give me measles instead. We have gained nothing and have actually made matters worse.
Look at any vintage medical text, Measles was NO big deal until they started making millions off the vaccines. Now it’s a killer………..ooooohhhhh, scary.
Can anyone here, anyone at all prove 36,000 deaths from the CDC. To my understanding that is not a valid number and they estimated deaths, those were not actual provable deaths.
And Emily - you can be flip all you want. My children are now healthy as I can make them and yes, that includes their bodies making Vit D from getting something as simple as sunshine.
And yes, in other countries, polio has been treated with high doses of IV Vitamin C - do your homework before you make fun of something - and do you know why we don’t do it here? No money in Vitamin C. It’s that simple.
Follow the money………………… and greed.
Mary
May 27, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Kristina - 12 whole cases of measles. Really? Measles was a non-issue before vaccines in which children who were relatively healthy survived. The majority of measles deaths has underlying conditions, unsanitary conditions and or poor medical care.
And as Vicky has already stated time and again these diseases were going down on their own BEFORE vaccination. Why does no one address that part of the argument.
Norah, unless YOU lived with those people you have no idea how they lived, what they did to combat illness, what their underlying conditions may be or whether their family is or was stressful. Stress and lack of sleep affect us much much more than the average person would like to believe.
Anyway,,,,,,,,,,,,,, off to work.
Vicky
May 27, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Note: the ONE child in 2006 who died after contracting the measles virus was in diminished health beforehand, living in a travelling community with poor sanitation and was suffering from a pre-existing illness.
Measles still kills and maims children in developing countries -vaccinated or not - when they are malnourished (particularly when they lack vitamin A), when they are without shelter and when their immunity is already being taxed.
Kristina - the incidence of 12 measles cases is not cause for panic (or panic mongering). See, The Lancet, Jan 5 1985 Suppression of Measles Rash and link with chronic disease.
In the 1960s and 1970s parents of young children regularly held ‘measles parties’, to ensure their children contracted this relatively harmless illness sooner rather than later when symptoms are more severe. Death rates and complications from the disease were extremely rare (similar rates in the UK to today when vaccination is widespread).
The hype around measles is outrageous and designed purely to keep vaccination levels (and pharma profits) high. A healthy child contracting this virus has an extremely rare chance of experiencing any of the complications which are touted as the norm.
Emily
May 27, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Mary, clearly I don’t understand the benefits of vitamin C? From what, exactly, do you derive that information? If you’re using the same reasoning to arrive at your unsupported assertions and conclusions, then I rest my case. I’m glad your children are healthy. I actually don’t disagree in the slightest with your overall rx for good health, and it is one we follow. But you’re naive at best. At best.
Gaye
May 27, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Jen, you are dead right, there are children in the past who had autism even before immunizations, but the numbers were so very few, so few that in all my husbands 42 years of teaching/Principal he only came across his first case 23 years ago, which shows that there is perhaps a weakness or heredity connection there, but why is there such an epidemic now and it has never been in the family history before, just as with asthma, there was only one child in our school who had asthma, and no one had ADD (or was out of control) but now when my husband takes kids on a school camp half to three quarters of the class front up two to three times a day for their medications.
Gaye
May 27, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Emily, just take a look on the net, The Journal of the American Medical Association, which claims that vitamins actually increase the risk of death.
Of course, this is research from conventional medicine – an industry that promotes patented chemicals as perfectly safe, even though FDA-approved pharmaceuticals and Dr’s are the 4th cause of death in America of over 120,000 Americans each year. (Imagine the uproar if vitamins killed even a fraction of that number…)
Their studies are dont on chemical vitamins which are no better for you than eating concrete, in fact concrete would probably do you better.
Gaye
May 27, 2008 at 6:58 pm
“Death by Medicine, demonstrates that the leading cause of death in America is not heart disease or cancer, but medical mistakes. In a seminal research paper authored by Gary Null, Ph.D., Carolyn Dean, MD, Martin Feldman, MD, and others (2003), all of the relevant statistics regarding deaths caused by medicine have been collected into a single research report. According to the report, the most conservative reading of statistics culled from government and peer reviewed journals shows that 751,936 Americans die every year as a result of medical error, also known as iatrogenesis. This is the equivalent of over six jumbo jets filled with passengers falling out of the sky every day. Never before have all the death rates from adverse drug reactions, unnecessary surgeries, medical errors, infections, malnutrition, bedsores, and nursing home mistakes been collected into a single research report. The paper is still undergoing peer review, revisions, and an analysis of its compiled statistics,and it seems that the final report will be a scathing indictment of allopathic medicine and how it is practiced in the United States today. A summary of the paper’s basic findings were published in Nexxus Magazine.” ~Nutrition Institute of America
http://www.nutritioninstituteofamerica.net/ResearchOverview.htm
Gaye
May 27, 2008 at 7:00 pm
01 July 2002
The pharmaceutical industry is the only industry in the world enjoying an enormous increase in revenue of 15-20 per cent, year on year on year, during an economic cycle when the rest of global industry has been enduring flat growth.
Pharmaceuticals make up the most profitable industry sector in the world. In the year 2000, the top 20 drug companies had combined sales of £135 billion, and an average growth rate of 11 per cent. Sales topped £155 billion in 2001, double the revenues achieved in 1997.
The overall profitability of pharmaceuticals was further emphasised in the Fortune 500 list. While the average Fortune 500 company saw profits during 2001 nosedive by 53 per cent, the drug companies on the list saw theirs leap another 33 per cent.
The trend is continuing. The total spend on prescription drugs in the USA in 2000, the last year under review by the NIHCM study, was $132 billion. This rose in 2001 to $175 billion, and it is set to reach $200 billion in 2002.
Mary
May 27, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Emily - I find it strange that you feel the need or ability to question my intelligence without posting even one source of your own?
Ego or simply rudeness?
What is your education? Since you seem to think that it’s the only thing that stops you from being as naive as me?
I got my info from two sources:
Just a Little Prick by Hillary Butler (New Zealand)
and
Ascorbate: The science of Vitamin C by Dr. Steve Hickey and Dr. Hilary Roberts.
Please, do feel free to post your own resources as to all of your so called knowledge. I wait with bated breath………..
Emily
May 27, 2008 at 7:24 pm
It’s usually ego and rudeness, simultaneously, in different doses, depending on the day. Please, don’t hold your breath, or bate it, because I’m not going to tell you my life story simply to justify myself on a blog. And naivety =/ to stupidity. You simply strike me as being incredibly naive. I probably shouldn’t tell you that because it’s rude, but it’s what I think. My ego has nothing to do with that particular opinion. Neither does my education. Quite well-educated people can be hopelessly naive, and the most street-smart people can have little standard education.
These things being asserted here have cycled through these blogs endlessly, and it gets old. I just posted a comment on another thread that I swear off reading them, but then fall into the habit again…it’s like watching a train wreck. I don’t post sources because I don’t need to. A search of PubMed, a look at some very well-done research and collated information by thorough bloggers…these are out there, freely searchable. You and Gaye have just materialized, but this stuff has been here over and over and over again.
I like the way people assume certain things about me (or about Kristina or about anyone) and my lifestyle or attitudes simply because I don’t come down on the side of “vaccines are evil.” It’s an odd thing to use as a litmus test, but people apply it freely. You concluded that I needed an eddymacation in Vitamin C based on no information whatsoever. Had I come on here, frothing at the mouth about how evil vaccines are, you’d likely have assumed that I have PhD in Supplementology.
Mary
May 27, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Well Emily, your own ass-umptions are getting to you because:
1) I’ve been on this blog much longer than you realize clearly, go back months and months and you’ll find “mary” a time or two;
2) I totally agree that a person’s education has NOTHING to do with what is reality or what is the truth of anything;
3) Everyone’s “reality” is nothing but perception in disguise. Your “reality” and therefore what you believe to be true is nothing more than bias and what you have experienced, and the same goes for any one of us on the Internet, at school, in science, as a doctor, as a teacher, or anything else. We believe what we seek out to find.
I sought out the dangers of vaccines and I found it and I’ll shout it loud and proud because there are other mothers out there like me who didn’t know that you could opt-out of vaccines. They didn’t know that if you receive WIC or other services you still can opt-out of vaccines. They are easily intimidated by what they perceive as people that are “smarter” than them based on letters after a name or two letters before a name (Dr).
And I voice my opinion because it’s been nothing short of an ephiphany to realize that everything I once believed in is bullshit.
Everything that has harmed my health is bullshit. My mother’s health. My daughter’s health. My husband’s hearing. It’s all bullshit. There has been an easier, more simple way all along and it’s nothing more than a simple life devoid of chemicals and crap.
I now grow my own garden, which is a challenge I never anticipated needing. I cook without teflon or a microwave. There is NO soda in my home and if I could replace my home with strawbale one I would.
AND I’m a staunch conservative that’s angry as hell at the current spending programs and privacy invasions.
See, Emily, you don’t know shit about me anymore than I know shit about you. And yes, I’m coarse, and yes I’m probably writing at a level that you’ll likely poo-poo for curse words, but really, who gives a rat’s ass?
Someone, somewhere is reading what I have to say and they are questioning the status quo of vaccinating their children and that is my goal.
If you want to continue to vaccinate your children right into their graves, please feel free.
Gaye
May 27, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Emily, you will not get your point across by being nasty about those who do not believe in immunization. I have noticed that there is a lot of very intellegent opinions on here and so far it is only yours that has something nasty to say..
Emily, I am sorry but I think it is you who needs to do some more reading, and yes there is a mass of stuff out there proving your point from the medical professions and scientists but there is also much that is against also from Dr’s and scientists, and with one in 5 children now chronically sick in America acording to the American medical association there has to be a reason, and I am not saying that it is only immunizations but with the mass of poisons in every injection it sure can compromise a child who is already low in health and it goes a long way towards killing our children either straight away or slowly over the years. The are children dying with cancers, and children with ADD, ADHD, Autism young women with breast cancers etc children dying of cancers is something we hardly heard of 45 years ago, in fact cancer is now way up the top there in deaths, hospitals are full of children with cancers. one has to surely wonder why??
We also have our water ways full of chemicals, our air is full of chemicals so put all this with the chemicals in immunization and we have a a time bomb which can go off in us at anytime before we die.
Emily
May 27, 2008 at 9:38 pm
I’m sorry. What did I say that was “nasty”? Did I unleash a diatribe of solid, trustworthy Anglo-Saxonisms against someone? I don’t think telling someone they’re naive is “nasty,” but…to each her own. I appreciate, however, yet another lecture on how desperately I need to educate myself about the toxins in our world. Phew. Where would I be without you?
Gaye
May 28, 2008 at 12:17 am
Emily you said…
I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it again, just for the bats that have left the belfry here:
sorry if I took it wrong..
Emily, Selenium is fairly good in America but low in NZ, Australia and Finland…but just because a country has fairly good amounts in the soil it doesn’t necessary mean that people are getting enough.
Studies have discovered that there’s about 35 proteins in the body that require Selenium to be synthesized and function. One of them for example is glutathione peroxidase, and it’s an antioxidant enzyme. It’s also involved in iodine metabolism, (which is probably what you were talking about Emily regards the thyroid, toooo much iodine is is dangerous for the thyroid), and a number of enzymes that are involved in metabolic regulation. It’s probably the antioxidant role that’s most important, so it might do things like protect the DNA from damage, protect membranes from damage.
In the US, Nutritional Prevention Cancer Trial supplemented apparently healthy individuals with 200 micrograms of Selenium a day, so that’s about two to three times the recommended dietary intake. And what they showed was that there was a decrease in total incidents and mortality from cancer, and also a decrease of about 50% in the risk of prostate cancer. But although it was a well-designed trial, it was a relatively small trial, and it is toxic, and that’s one of the issues, there’s not a lot of space between requirement and toxicity. The best form to take is organic Selenium, which is mostly in the form of selenomathianine. I feel that it would be very unwise to take Selenium unless people first have their levels measured, but as with anything not having enough selenium is also dangerous.
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 28, 2008 at 12:24 am
From EpiWonk about the latest study from Geier and Geier with their co-author, Young:
If you look for environmental causes and toxins, you will find them…….
Gaye
May 28, 2008 at 12:56 am
Kristian this is why I mentioned that it is not just immunizations which are a problem but what is in our foods, air and water, and an already weak system can just give in.. but we dont need more poisons in our body…
We all used to get what used to be called by dr’s the mild childhood diseases and we made sure our kids got them by having measles parties, no one seemed to be scared of anything and neither did the Dr’s.. but have we exchanged a few children being born deaf etc which was rare as most mothers had had measles as children, with the cancers, ADD, asthma etc of today…
I see that you have a PhD which I presume from your remarks is in Medicine, I say that because my husband was doing a PhD but it was in education…
There are many Dr’s and Professors against immunization..
a long-time poster
May 28, 2008 at 1:00 am
‘Discord’ appears to get the better of Mary every time.
Gaye
May 28, 2008 at 1:07 am
There is much to be read like this one.
MMR: Vaccine can cause blood disorder
13 March 2008 …
There’s more bad news for advocates of the MMR (measles-mumps-rubella) vaccine with the discovery this week that it can cause a blood disorder. Researchers have found that it may trigger immune thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP), an immune system malfunction that destroys the body’s own blood platelets.
The effect seems to last for an average of seven days, during which time the child’s platelet count could fall.
The risk is relatively low, say researchers, and one case of ITP will be caused per 40,000 vaccinations. The risk appears to last for up to 42 days after vaccination.
Researchers from Kaiser Permanente Colorado, Denver analysed the health profiles of more than 1 million children who had been vaccinated. Of these, 259 developed ITP, and they reckon the vaccine was responsible for 76 per cent of these cases.
…………………………..
Mmr jab causes crohn’s and autism, say studies
01 September 1997
The MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccination may cause autism and Crohn’s disease, five studies to be published later this year will reveal.
The results, based on research from the UK and other countries, “clearly confirm our suspicions and take them further”, he told the medical magazine Pulse.
Dr Wakefield said the number of children developing Crohn’s disease had escalated dramatically since the 1960s when the measles vaccination was introduced in the UK. Doctors are sending him up to six cases a week of children with Crohn’s or with autistic disturbances believed to be brought on by the MMR vaccine.
The vaccines may open the door for other serotypes to emerge as new threats, two doctors at the Malmo University Hospital in Sweden have warned (Lancet, 1997; 350: 222). warned.
(Source: Pediatrics, 2008; 121: e687-e692).
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 28, 2008 at 1:13 am
My son’s had all of his immunizations and they did not cause him to be autistic.
It’s possible to point to any environmental factor as a possible “cause” of autism. One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that it’s only in the past several years that we have begun to pay attention to the environment, its pollution, and the effects of these on people. “The environment” is the oft-cited factor for asthma and many other conditions—-so it’s not surprising that people might try to link it to autism.
Gaye
May 28, 2008 at 1:30 am
Mary, Although there is a mass if information from Dr/s and other well qualified professionals, we don’t even need to seek out what they say, the evidence is right in front of us…
One in five children in the USA has a chronic illness. The figure has trebled in the last 20 years, mainly because of rising levels of asthma, obesity and ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder), And more than 1 million children now receive disability benefit from the government, and a new study estimates that 5 million children – that’s 7 per cent of all children in the USA - have an illness that limits their daily activities.
While better diagnosis may explain some of the increase, researchers believe it is primarily down to poor lifestyle – such as a bad diet and lack exercise – and environmental factors, such as pollution.
(Source: Journal of the American Medical Association, 2007; 297: 2755-9).
Now what life style could have been worse than during the depression and wars.. but notice it has drastically increased over the past 20 years, hmmmm.. and diagnosis doesn’t explain anything, surely parents had the brains to know that something was wrong with their children 20 years ago all diagnosis does is give the problem a name, but according to the American Medical Association disease has trebled in the past 20 years…..
Gaye
May 28, 2008 at 5:15 am
Kristina, two of my grandchildren have also had all their immunizations also, and other than them getting measles, they also have had no problems thus far, except they are always sick with something… two of my other grand children have had terrible problems thus the other two haven’t been immunized..
Kristina, people link it to autism simply because it is within hrs sometimes that the hell starts often with the screaming, or being in pain, massive temps etc, some start off with just exceptional temps which often lead to they eyes becoming dull, which the parent attributes to the child just being sick at first, but within days more obvious problems arise, however as immunization is often only tested for a very short time Dr’s do not attribute the problem to the immunization if it has been longer than a few days.. even though the symptoms were there from the beginning.. My husband specialises in bright children and or children with neurological problems.
Gaye
May 28, 2008 at 6:17 am
Vicky
you wrote yesterday about the hype on measles etc, and I so agree with you.. Dr’s used to tell us to not worry it was just a mild childhood disease, and like all diseases keep them quite and comfortable with lots of water. BUT now they call these mild child diseases, killer diseases..
I don’t hear Dr’s calling immunizations which are killing hundreds of children, killer Immunizations.. The real weapons of mass destruction is Immunization, with one in 5 American children now chronically sick…..And another thing..
The number of children diagnosed with blindness is rapidly increasing. According to a study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,
nearly one in every 150 US children is blind. These numbers are startling, and this disability is affecting more and more families. Twenty years
ago, blindness was a very rare case.
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 28, 2008 at 8:47 am
@Gaye, yes, that’s exactly why people link the immunizations to autism, that they see changes after their child receives the shots. I’ve read too many stories that use that exact language. I think there’s a need to find a cause to point to.
In the case of Michelle Cedillo (the first case tried in the “Autism Omnibus”), videos of her as a baby showed that she already did not have joint attention and that her play was already repetitive—-that she already had signs of autism.
Mary
May 28, 2008 at 9:33 am
Kristina,
It pains me that you can’t realize that whatever mom is lacking in the womb or is over toxic of in the womb will affect the baby. Yes, babies may be born toxic already, that’s clear, but that still does not mean that vaccines are not a HUGE and major factor in the cases of austism in our country.
I find it really, really sad that although you clearly have all the education available to you, you still refuse to see your own child’s struggle and still vaccinate.That is exactly what I refer to when I say that I could never vaccinate my third child knowing what I know about my first two.
For those that don’t know my first ended up in ER after vaccines for two days and for two spinal taps and almost died from a “menengitis (sp) like” condition. That’s it. That’s all they could ever tell me. Meanwhile my mother was dying of ALS.
Then my second daughter got JRA from her MMR shots. Documented with fancy specialists to prove the connection. However, no one bothered to tell me about the injury compensation program.
Then my husband lost part of his hearing. A man who wears hearing protection to mow his grass from the Hep B series from the military. He was waived from the third shot, which is almost unheard of in the military. So, yes, my third son is totally unvaxxed and he is the healthiest child I’ve had. No ear infections. No problems walking, talking, running, he’s close to perfect for his age.
But you kept on vaccinating, knowing that your child’s body was already fighting autism and overloaded because you “dont’ believe” that vaccines cause it.
So, then you must know what does cause it? TV? That was one article in a magazine, or maybe you think air pollution trumps mercury shot directly into a child’s veins. Maybe formaldahyde (used to preserve corpses) is a-okay in a baby’s system?
I used to post here to think I was doing a service, sharing info that someone with your education may not have considered, but I can see that it’s just a sad case of ego and “too much education” getting in your way. You have lost the very thing that used to keep children safe and alive from the govt., and other dangers, your mother’s instinct.
Have a good one.
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 28, 2008 at 9:37 am
@Mary,
My son’s “perfect for his age”—thanks for the nice phrasing!
Education is the most important thing for all of our children to prepare them for good lives. Very best—-
Mary
May 28, 2008 at 10:42 am
Education, of which I have plenty, is not the same as good old fashioned common sense. If your son was “perfect for his age” then he would be meeting each and every milestone that would deem him not autistic.
While I realize you think he’s perfect because he’s your son, he’s not likely to go on and even have the same kind of life you have had. I do not, nor will I ever, understand all the parents that are more than willing to roll over and say “oh, but he’s just perfect for me.”
Your son has been injured in a way that will never be changed. You can chelate, you can detox, you can have all the opportunities in the world, but the damage was done when you started putting toxins into an already overloaded body and all you can say is that he’s perfect and you’re happy with the results?
Well, my daughter was injured and she’s not perfect for her age (but damn you should see her try), nor was she when her most important milestones should have been met. And I’m still angry about it. There was no way, with a medical history like ours that she should have even gotten vaccines, but they dont’ bother to tell you that, do they. They dont’ even do the most basic of questions as to the child. Nope, all about moving them in and moving them out.
Nope. Shoot em all up. Safety, convenience, money — it’s about everything BUT the child.
Sad and sadder.
Gaye
May 29, 2008 at 3:45 am
Kristina,
There are thousands of children out there who were happy little mites and going through the normal growth stages with smiling faces chatting away like chip monks, and then after their second immunization it appears it was all down hill.
I do not have any children with health problems so I dont have this experience, and as I said my husband who has been a Principal/teacher for over 40 years did not see these problems 25 years ago, most kids in school were healthy..
Gaye
May 29, 2008 at 7:11 am
Mary, don’t give up, I was a nurse many years ago (which seems like centuries ago), and I know that it is nothing like being a Dr but still experience and years of learning is something. I went into natural medicines for three reasons, one was that I saw the good and bad of pharmaceutical drugs and the damage that they did.
Two, I realised that Dr’s are only doctrinated in the ways of drugs and by the pharmaceutical companies, and Dr’s don’t really have time to study anything else for themselves. However, there is a growing number of Dr’s who are now becoming aware and are studying outside their realm.
And Number three, because I decided that although we are constantly told that natural medicines are dangerous and haven’t gone through the process of research??? I would rather trust the centuries of what people have found to work and what didn’t, than use drugs which has only been around for about 150 or 200 years and it is the biggest profit making business in America, I use drugs only as a last resort …the very things that Dr’s say are not any good for us are the food that we have been given for the benefit and healing of our bodies and are supposed to hold every nutrient that the body needs. Having said that many wonderful strides have been made in medicine but in many cases there are consequences..
Emily
May 29, 2008 at 9:25 am
Well, for centuries, they used arsenic and mercury as curatives for many things. Would you rather trust that? I know, let’s go back to the “humors” and “miasma” hypotheses that prevailed into the late 19th century. Then we can start bleeding people again, especially to cure all that “hysteria” in women.
And the reasons these “drugs” (which often are derived from the very “natural” medicines you cling to) are efficiacious is the very fact that they’ve been tested and demonstrated to be efficacious. You cite drug company greed. The thing is, drug companies don’t stop researchers from assessing the effectiveness of any given compound, and researchers all over the world do this for “natural” medicines. There are entire journals devoted to it. It’s quite productive in Germany, which has a greater systematic promotion of them. And when research demonstrates (or not) the efficacy, then this drug therapy becomes part of the canon of chemicals addressed using the scientific method. And that confers a validity and cachet on their use that is far more trustworthy than millennia of old wives’ tales.
Medicinal therapies and their testing are not only in the hands of MDs or drug companies. Whether they are widely marketed and FDA tested is another story, but if the research is worthy, it will be done, and in many cases has been done. Echinacea and zinc come to mind. And it will be widely reported, FDA approval or drug company imprimatur or not.
Thus, there is no point in cutting out scientific research and not trusting it. Encouraging testing of these “remedies” through the systematic application of the scientific method is useful, as always, in weeding out those that are genuinely the product of old wives’ tales and identifying those that have efficacy. Even more important, we can identify the mechanisms of that efficacy, opening the door to further investigations.
Screaming for the heads of science and medicine and pointing the finger of broad conspiracy sets up a battleground rather than a pursuit of knowledge. It makes the “natural” med people look like a bunch of barking lunatics, which puts of the personality types of most scientists and inclines them to dismiss the lunatics, rather than to pursue their claims. The better route is to turn to science to demonstrate that what you believe the medicines do is something that they do. “Data” is not the plural of anecdote. Data are derived from application of the scientific method. If the “natural” remedies are truly effective, then you have nothing to fear from the process.
Gaye
May 29, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Emily
I do think that we have advanced a little further than the dark ages, but with drugs being the 4th cause of death in America perhaps not much further..
It is like anything, just because a few footballers go out and booze up large and rape a couple of girls doesn’t mean that all sports people are bad..
Of course there was some terrible things went on back then like bleeding a person, keeping them in a dark room, but I am sure with our so called more enlightened age we have advanced at least a little past that.. Chinese medicines have been around far longer than us bleeding people..
I would be more inclined to trust researchers if they weren’t paid off by the drug companies, even the ghost writers are paid by the drug companies.
Then why oh why is there constantly drugs being taken off the market after they discover that many hundreds of people have died, or had such side effects that they will never be the same again. Why do we have to take something then something else to address the side effects of the first drug, my brother in law is taking 15 tablets a day now all to help counteract something else or something that has been caused by another drug..
And yes drugs come from the natural, but instead of promoting the plant that they have taken it from which is on a far more natural form, they have to be made into the chemical before the company can make money out of it so even if the natural is very effective they have to change it so as to get the money.
Mary
May 29, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Well, this was too delicious not to share…. your special dr. offit is a paid stooge of the drug companies.
The book he wrote for parents was paid for by Merck…. yeah, he’s real open and no ethical implications there at all………..
He has rc’d hundreds of thousands of dollars for so called research, holds a vaccine patent and acts (is paid) to be a consultant to Merck………
Now, if I could only get to the other post to put this down, but alas, I’ve deleted all autism vox emails…………oh well, hopefully smarties like Emily and HCN and Kassiane know how to get here…..
Offit — I’m still laughing………..
Gaye
May 29, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Why is there so many people who have been given up by the medical profession and told to go home and get their house in order but in desperation they have tried natural products and been cured??? I personally know of at least 3.. I also know of a couple who were so far gone but the natural gave them another year on top of what the Dr had given them, but maybe if they had gone to the natural first they might even be alive today. One friend who had lymph cancer and now 15 years later has a full life insurance policy and 2 beautiful children, but of course he is only in remission after having been given 3/6 months to live by the Dr’s..
Another friend who was told to not take anything other than what they gave her but who took the natural medicine anyway all the way through her chemo faired so well that the Dr’s couldn’t understand why she recovered so quickly but of course she didn’t dare tell them what she was taking, she would have been ridiculed. For anyone reading this, I would NOT do this unless you had advice on it, it is not something to take lightly and muck around with on your own, the people that these friends consulted outside medicine were professional Drs who also specialised in the natural..
Gaye
May 29, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Emily, I would trust the medical world if I didn’t see the misery that it seems to have caused, that is not to say that if I was desperate I wouldn’t use it but I sure would try other things first.. I had Arrhythmia which was so bad that my bed used to shake, I felt that my heart was going to jump out of my throat, and so did two of my friends, the Dr’s put them on a drug, but my dear Dr’s said the didn’t want me to go on it because of the side effects, so I used something else, (which I wont put on here as if it is taken for too long can also cause the problem). Now my friends are now on another drug as well and my heart is fine. I found out what was causing the problem and their drugs just hide it..
In having said all this Emily, I know of fantastic things that medicine has done, and many millions of people would be dead without it, but I would only use it as a last resort, as so much bad has also been done with drugs.. If things are going wrong in the body, find out what is causing it and as long as it is not mechanical then fix it with good nutrition, things go wrong first off because the body is missing out on something but we hide that by taking drugs and thus so often the cause is not found..
anyway Emily it is no good debating this, as we all have our experiences and opinions.. I just see what it is doing to my family and friends, and those who are like me are more healthy..
Gaye
May 29, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Mary, my heart goes out to you as you struggle with your beautiful child.. We have tried to help so many parents who are in the same position as you..
It is horrific hearing the speech change and seeing the light go out of their eyes, of course to differing degrees with different children and dont let anyone tell you that you are not fantastic.. Keep on keeping on Mary..
Gaye
May 29, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Emily you said…
there is no point in cutting out scientific research and not trusting it.
Of course not, all we need is companies who dont put out things that they know is wrong, companies who can be trusted, even the FDA is not trusted..
In 2007 The FDA was moving with unprecedented speed to launch a drug research center to be paid for by companies it regulates.
The FDA is to lax on some safety issues and too cozy with drug makers.
I have read that doctors who prescribed the drug company’s products and avoided competing drugs were paid “consulting fees” of tens of thousands of dollars. This is consulting that requires nothing more than signing a blank sheet of paper and cashing the check, of course.
and much more.
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 29, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Here’s more on Dr.Offit; extreme “dislike” of him (as expressed above) among proponents of theories that vaccines can be linked to autism is not unknown.
http://www.autismvox.com/paul-offit-on-hannah-poling-and-the-vicp/
http://www.autismvox.com/paul-offit-on-the-case-of-hannah-poling/
Vicky
May 30, 2008 at 6:28 am
Kristina - you are incredibly selective in what you choose to address here. I thought the purpose of this kind of communication was to produce a fair and accurate appraisal of the issues within the debate - not just a repetition of the same errant statements. You have elicited information/sources from me and others but when supplied fail to respond.
How do you marry up your views with for example, the information I gave you on disease incidence falling prior to introduction of vaccination; The peer-reviewed Lancet article on suppression of measles rash; or Mary’s comments on Dr. Offit being openly in the pay of drugs companies?
daedalus2u
May 30, 2008 at 10:03 am
Vicky, what is your point? That you anti-vaxers can cherry pick crap studies and bogus statements out of the literature? BFD. A diatribe against vaccination from 1899? WTF! We are now in the 21st century, not the 19th!
It is a good thing that no one listened to those cranks on smallpox vaccination. Smallpox was eliminated by vaccines. The lives of over a billion people have been saved by smallpox vaccination.
What about Wakefield’s “conflicts of interest”? Wakefield was in the pay of lawyers trying to scam the legal system and fraudulently made up stuff to back up his baseless assertion that MMR caused autism. Of course Wakefield tried to hide the payoffs he was given. He tried to hide it, then lied about it, then sued Brian Deer to get him to back off, then settled when Brian Deer didn’t back off and was obviously going to win.
Why doesn’t the anti-vax community apply the same scrutiny to their own peddlers of nonsense as they do to those in the reality based community? I know what the reason is, because if they did, they wouldn’t be anti-vaxers. They would join the rest of us in the reality based community.
Why is there the quite delusional belief that the entire medical community is in a vast conspiracy to kill and injure children? Huh? How many people do you know who would kill and injure children? I don’t know any. What basis is there for thinking that the vast majority of people I don’t know are so completely different than the people I do know? None at all, other than the xenophobic hysteria whipped up by anti-vax propagandists.
There is an invasion of MMR/vaccine misinformation. It is coming straight from you and the other anti-vaxers.
It is useless to argue with you and the other anti-vaxers. You didn’t come up with your anti-vax beliefs through facts, logic and reason, no amount of facts, logic and reason is going to convince you of something else.
Those of us in the reality based community only have facts, logic and reason to work with. We are unwilling to use the lies, distortions, and delusions that are the anti-vaxers stock in trade.
Many anti-vaxers are good at lying. Many of them even fool themselves. The anti-vax community sure gets plenty of practice. They never abandon a lie; they just set it aside until people have forgotten it, then trot it out like it was some new fact.
BFD, Dr Offit is openly in the pay of pharmaceutical companies. Are the anti-vax propagandists in the pay of the anti-vax industry? Good question, but the anti-vax propagandists won’t tell who is paying them. Who paid David Kirby to write his book EoH? Has he ever said? Who is paying the other anti-vax propagandists? Why won’t they tell us? Do they have something to hide?
Mary
May 30, 2008 at 12:05 pm
daedalus2u
So anti vaxxers cherry pick studies but pro vaxxers don’t. uh, right.
Everyone’s reality is different. Clearly you allow studies and medical pay off people to tell you how to think. Anti vaxxers don’t.
I used to, I will freely admit. I used to think that the doctors were layered in gold and dipped in chocolate. Then I got involved in the injuries to my family and started researching.
The “crap” studies you refer to are only “crap” to you and yours that has a 2-inch window of what you’ll accept and what you won’t.
Evidence of death isn’t even good enough for you a mere 48 hours after vaccination. Or do you think I made that baby girl up in my delusional head?
I’ve asked before and I’ll ask again, what will it take for you all to realize that vaccines at the level they are given are dangerous and killing babies? Your baby? Is that what it would take? I think not since many of the readers or posters have autistic kids and just keep on pushing that crap into their systems.
What is a lie to one person is another person’s truth.
What you consider a LIE (and you weren’t real clear there) I might consider a revelation. Such as the fact that Vitamin C can and does cure many ills. Too simple for you I realize, but it’s true nonetheless.
What I consider evil, said medical establishment shoving 48 vaccines in our children’s bodies, you consider world saving. Only time will tell which of us is delusional.
As to smallpox, it was quarantine, cleaner surroundings, washing hands and burning that “saved” everyone. The vaccine was given to less than 10% of the entire population at the time, do tell how 10% saved everyone. And what of the smallpox deaths from vaccination, do they not matter at all?
What of the deaths from polio vaccine when it first came out? What of the deaths from contaminated vaccines that we see? Or from “hot” lots?
I’m sure to those parents, you are the one that is quite out of reality. Their reality, not your reality.
Your reality probably drugs kids for being active, shoves soda down your throat and then takes an anti-depressant for something that a diet change and exercise would take care of .
See you believe in science, clearly.
And I don’t.
So my reality is nothing more than personal experience, plus research, plus belief. I am physically standing here fighting a fever in my 8 year old hoping that it won’t trigger her JRA to attack her again. We’ve been in remission for almost two years due to a move to a drier climate, diet, sunlight (that’s right folks, sunlight is part of our protocol), vitamins, MSM, Chrondrotin (sp) found in Joint Juice, swimming, limited dairy, limited red meat, and it’s been working like a charm.
Modern medicine wanted her on Celebrex II - a cox II inhibitor quite like Vioxx and we all know what Vioxx did. Modern medcine, after seeing her for FIVE minutes wanted her on Zyrtex - five minutes.
I said, “Dr. she’s tired and hasn’t been sleeping last five nights. Want to make sure her lungs are clear and that I’m not missing anything.”
Dr., “She has bags under her eyes.”
Me, “Dr. she hasn’t been sleeping.”
Dr., “bags are a sign of allergies.”
Me, “so is a lack of sleep.”
Dr., “I can put her on Zyrtex for those allergies.”
Me, “I’m not saying that she doesn’t have any allergies, but I find it strange that you would prescribe something so strong after five minutes of seeing sleep bags.”
Dr., “Well if you don’t want to listen I guess I’ll just listen to her lungs and you can leave.”
Me, “that would be great, thanks. Oh, and can you wash your hands first.”
Dr., wiping antibacterial crap all over her hands, “Why?”
Me, “Because that syrup you put on your hands was never meant to replace hand washing and it doesn’t work as well as old fashioned hand washing either.”
Dr., with sly smile washes her hands and then comes to me.
I have no recourse but to use military doctors and let’s just say I’ve gotten VERY good at holding my own.
I love the doctor who told me, “I vaccinate my own children.”
Me, “I spank my children, will you start doing that?”
Dr., “no, I don’t believe in spanking.”
Me, “bingo, and I no longer believe in vaccinations.”
That was our last “well baby” visit and I was transferred to the non-handwashing woman above…………LOL
D — it’s useless to argue with you as well, you are stuck in books and studies while the rest of us are changing our children’s lives and seeking out knowledge right under our noses that is being ignored because it isn’t backed by a trillion dollar pharma company!
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 30, 2008 at 12:11 pm
@Mary, I’m not sure what this comment has to do with autism.
Mary
May 30, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Kristina, did you read D’s comments?
What did they have to do with austism?
And as to who gets paid what: Kirby is a journalist. He’s not an “anti vaxxer” he pitched a book, an agent picked it up, then a publisher picked it up. He was paid by the publisher.
There is no grand anti vaxx establishment that makes trillions world wide on ANY product.
NVIC is supported through donations made by parents like me to keep them on the forefront of vaccination freedom.
Why is this important to autism? Because you all are preaching that there is no greater lie than the link between the MMR vaccine and autism. And I am arguing that vaccines are responsible for autism and soooooooooooooo much more.
I am arguing that a paid PR stooge like Offit should not be considered when making an informed choice.
Do you know that Offit made the comment “a baby could get 100,000 vaccines in one day and be fine.”
What an insane assertion. And where would all the studies be to back that up? Heck we can’t even get studies to back up 48 vaccines in six years, let alone 100K vaccines in one day.
Source: Howard, B. 2005. “10 Vaccine Myths — Busted.” Babytalk.
You call your guru go to doctor a man that would (and he would) give a baby 100K vaccines in one day. This is not a flip remark, he made this remark and then stood behind it by putting the article on Children’s Hospital of Philedelphia’s website!
Yeah, that’s a doctor I’m going to believe in!
Vaccines = Austism
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 30, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Daedalus2 comments on many posts about the science of autism and much recent research.
More on David Kirby here.
You views about autism and vaccines suggest that it might be helpful if you read other posts on this site (as I hope you have!) about education and teaching autistic children, and about life with autism.
Mary
May 30, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Actually, I really don’t read all the posts on here because I don’t agree with you or most of your readers on even the most basic of ideas, such as no longer vaccinating an already injured child.
For those of you that believe in God, if there are any, how do you reconcile the Bible telling you not to defile your body with things like vaccines and your faith in vaccines?
I realize science and God don’t usually go together for academics, but possibly there are one or two believers on here.
Gaye
May 30, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Kristina, it is simple mathematics’ years ago there was only the very odd child in a million who had autism so few that in all my husbands 40 years of teaching he had NOT come across any until 25 years ago, and surely as a Principal he would have got to hear of any children who had problems who were being hidden at home during that time.
In that 42 years he has taught in many many schools both here in Australia and NZ.. it speaks for itself, and immunization in America is way ahead of Australia, we still feel it is wise to only give a three at a time, but it is changing.. Now they want to give it to the new born so as if something does go wrong the parents wont know that the child was NOT born that way and then drug companies wont be able to be liable..
Gaye
May 30, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Kristina, I think that most parents on here for or against have the common sense to read both sides of the argument, but I am afraid that Dr’s and the likes are fed only the drug companies propaganda thus there are only a few who seem to want to or have the time to want to know the other side.. Most parents who are against immunizations have wanted to do the best for their children so they have gone into it thoroughly reading up about most sides.
I see that you have put very prominently after your name put PhD every time, what is your degree in??? I am sorry but I can also put PhD after my name and you wouldn’t have a clue as to if I am telling the truth or not, nor do you know that my husband has been a principal and teacher for 40 years, in which time he has specialised in bright children and children with neurological problems.. these problems only emerging in great numbers in the last 25 years.. and he was doing a PhD in this area but decided that it was to much of a closed book to continue at this stage.
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 30, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Also among the readers here are many autistic adults.
We have to consider how the diagnostic criteria for autism have changed in the past generation, and how (in the US, at any rate) changes in the way that children are categorized have changed. It wasn’t until the 1990s that autism became a classification to categorize US students with. Autism is being diagnosed more frequently because there is more understanding of what it is.
Here’s my bio.
Gaye
May 30, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Mary, you are so right, I for one would not vaccinate a child that had already been subjected to the hell of these injections, nor one which was sick, to me that would be being very irresponsible, but of course Dr’s who have not read their information properly would say that you are being irresponsible. One Dr would not help my daughters very sick vomiting child until he had given him his immunization injection. The pamphlets themselves say to not vaccinate a sick child and I personally would not take the risk.. You are the mother and you know. As I have said on here before, when will the medical profession wake up, that even their own medical journal says–
1 in 5 American kids are now chronically sick.
12 July 2007
One in five children in the USA has a chronic illness. The figure has trebled in the last 20 years, mainly because of rising levels of asthma, obesity and ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder).
More than 1 million children now receive disability benefit from the government, and a new study estimates that 5 million children – that’s 7 per cent of all children in the USA - have an illness that limits their daily activities.
(Source: Journal of the American Medical Association, 2007; 297: 2755-9).
Gaye
May 30, 2008 at 7:47 pm
So Mary, don’t be put off just find your self an informed medical Dr who specialises in the Natural as well, he has taken the time to inform himself of the dangers. You have to remember that Dr’s only get about half a days teaching on natural foods in their training and people are so sick that they don’t have time to read up on other things.. Hells teeth, kids when we were younger never had to go to Dr’s not many got sick, so it is no wonder Dr’s don’t want us to find out that immunizations can cause problems as they won’t have the customers.. Healthy people are not a source of money. And Mary you are so right, we are not to pollute our bodies.. we cant help some of it but we must avoid what we can..
Kassiane
May 30, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Gosh, Kristina! I don’t exist. I’m 25 and autistic. But Mary and Gaye know everything. First they say I should be dead so their precious offspring can spread preventable diseases thither and yon, now they say autistic people my age don’t exist.
As Orac says…the stupid, it burns.
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 30, 2008 at 7:56 pm
It is Friday, when a dose of woo gets delivered.
daedalus2u
May 30, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Mary, the topic of this post is MMR/Vaccine Misinformation. You have been supplying the misinformation, I am trying to supply the correct information. Not for you, I think you are not reachable, but for the lurkers. There are some others who are trying to counter your misinformation too, Emily, Monika, Kristina.
Regarding smallpox, you seem to be completely ignorant of the actual facts concerning it.
http ://www.clinmedres.org/cgi/content/full/1/2/87
There is plenty of very good, very reliable, and very well documented information on smallpox. The only way you could have missed it is though willful ignorance. Why you are choosing ignorance is not something that I understand.
Antivaxers have been around for a long time. They seem to have not changed much. In 1721, one of them threw a bomb into the house of a vaccine proponent where it landed in the bedroom of his sick nephew.
http ://qshc.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/13/1/82
Using the extremely primitive methods of the time, vaccinated individuals experienced a death rate of ~2% while infected individuals had a death rate of 14.9%.
(I put a space after the http so my message would post with the links)
I agree with Kassiane, the stupid it burns.
Gaye
May 30, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Mary, Kristina has to realise that unlike pharmaceutical companies, that the people against immunizations do NOT get any money from anyone they are just people who care and are trying to warn others as to what has happened to them and their babies, however drug companies have made the biggest profit out of all companies this year…
She has to also realise that it is not just Christians who are trying to warn the world of this epidemic of immunization, there are also thousands of people who do not believe in God who say the same things. Of course if you do believe in God you are counted as a fanatic so can be dismissed, but what Kristina doesn’t seem to realise is that there are thousands of scientists, professors, Dr’s etc who are also Christians but of course they will dismiss them also.. And yes I am angry, I am angry at the ignorance of some of these Dr’s for pushing immunizations on our children without first looking at the dangers of both sides of the issue and dismissing the knowledge of these people.. I am angry that they continue to damage children and then say that it is for the benefit of the herd, so why don’t they go across to countries where immunizations are not done and give them out free???, well we know why, there is no money in that eh, which means that disease will never ever be stamped out as it is only those who can afford it that are immunized, and drug companies will continue to make their trillions, it makes one not trust the good things that drug companies do eh.
Kristina Chew, PhD
May 30, 2008 at 8:01 pm
@Gaye,
Fascinating to find oneself written about in the 3rd person on one’s own weblog!
Very best.
Gaye
May 30, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Mary you said…Evidence of death isn’t even good enough for you a mere 48 hours after vaccination. Or do you think I made that baby girl up in my delusional head?
There are hundreds of babies who die after vaccinations, I saved my Granddaugher who went blue in my arms just after being vaccinated, and we had to keep an eye on her with a monitor for months, but of course she would just have been counted as another cot death. Haven