Autism According to Jenny
If you’d like a sense of where the next rebranding of autism is going, look no further than what Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey say on CNN.com today:
We believe autism is an environmental illness.
So: If “autism” is redefined as a medical diagnosis, will school districts start saying “autistic child? not our child, go talk to you doctor—education’s not the answer.”
I really hope not.
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POSTED IN: Diagnosis, Environment, Health
77 opinions for Autism According to Jenny
Leila
Apr 2, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Well, it is a medical diagnosis. But it also requires special education services. We cannot live without either medical or educational therapies.
The one thing that is valid in Jenny’s approach, though, is her suggestion that scientists look at her son and other “recovered” kids to see what made them develop better than expected. There needs to be some research done on those sucessful cases to see if they were supposed to grow out of most of their autistic symptoms naturally, or if the interventions were responsible for the improvement - and in this case, which intervention was more critical.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Apr 2, 2008 at 7:48 pm
And so you mean the educational ones or the biomed ones…. both, some….
María Luján
Apr 2, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Kristina
I do not think that the one you present is the potential situation forthcoming
will school districts start saying “autistic child? not our child, go talk to you doctor—education’s not the answer.”
because it is known that- biomedical or not- you need special approaches to educate autistic children.
In our case, the education process has been very much pleasant for NT´s school teachers with the proper treatment of the several CMPs my son has.
It is not an OR situation it should be presented as an AND situation-PRoper treatment of properly tesetd/diagnosed/treated environmental CMPs plus special and adequate and accomodated and respectful education. BTW the first part makes much easier the second one- mainly for the child. It is difficult, but it is not imposible.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Apr 2, 2008 at 8:07 pm
I don’t think it’s an “OR situation.” More a bit of a thought experiment to consider: For instance, Charlie’s teachers know he is on medication and there’s a tendency to attribute some things (like falling asleep in school) only to the medication and not consider other facts (for instance, I noted that he was eating a lot in the morning and that, I pointed out, could be making him sleepy). Charlie’s current teachers look carefully at their own teaching practices when he is having trouble and try to change what they do.
McCarthy’s Louder Than Words does note that she does ABA and other educational therapies. But, she makes it quite clear that it is biomedical interventions—gluten-free casein-free diet, anti-fungal treatment—that are the main reasons for her son’s “recovery.”
kyra
Apr 2, 2008 at 8:12 pm
i haven’t read Jenny’s book but couldnt ‘t it be that her son ‘recovered’ many of his ‘lost’ engagements and skills (for lack of a better term) through dietary intervention? if this was what they experienced, it doesn’t mean all families would but it also doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Jenny says:
“We wish to state, very clearly, that we are not against all vaccines, but we do believe there is strong evidence to suggest that some of the ingredients may be hazardous and that our children are being given too many, too soon!”
and i have to say, i agree with that statement. AND her statement that the current vaccine schedule coupled with the old preservative compounds are not a ‘one size fits all’ solution for all kids.
i wish that was okay for all of us to hear without it meaning more hysteria and fear and without it diverting funds away from how to best educate kids with ASD, including respectful behavioral, developmental and sensory approaches.
Emily
Apr 2, 2008 at 8:24 pm
I wish a celebrity with at least half of a brain would speak on this topic with all the nuance and understanding and in-depth knowledge it requires. Why do we have to have the vapid Indigo Girl?
CS
Apr 2, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Jenny’s son nor any of the children presented as “recovered” are in fact “recovered”. What they are is older autistic kids. I’ve yet to see video of these recovered kids. I’ve seen video from ARI of a parade of kids they claimed were “recovered”, but what I saw were older pddnos and asperger’s children. None of those kids would pass for NT in a group of other teens. DAN has for decades now claimed “recovered” kids, but have never given proof of those children. Its an urban legend. It’s simple, take the “recovered” kids to an autism STAART center at a major university, have them evaluated and then present the proof. It’s that simple. Really, its that simple. Get them away from the cult of biomed, to real evaluators who know nothing of their developmental history, have them evaluated and come back with the proof. That simple. But guess what, it won’t ever happen. Jenny’s Lovaas provider won’t go so far as to say Evan is “recovered”. Its all in the mind of a parent that expected all autistic people to be gouging out their eyeballs and screaming at the top of their lungs.
CS
Apr 2, 2008 at 9:32 pm
“The one thing that is valid in Jenny’s approach, though, is her suggestion that scientists look at her son and other “recovered” kids to see what made them develop better than expected. There needs to be some research done on those sucessful cases to see if they were supposed to grow out of most of their autistic symptoms naturally, or if the interventions were responsible for the improvement - and in this case, which intervention was more critical.”
First, you have to get Jenny to acknowledge that autistic adults exist. According to her, she’s never met one, nor to my knowledge has sought to meet or converse with one us. We are an “Inconvenient Truth”.
Beth
Apr 2, 2008 at 9:51 pm
I think it’s also a situation where her son (and many other “recovered” autistics) has made some great gains that she is attributing to the “biomed” interventions. I can tell you that my son has made HUGE gains in the three years since he has been diagnosed and we have not used any of those therapies with him. If I had done the therapies (diet, supplement, chelation) I could attribute his success to that but instead I can attribute it to the fact that he is getting a great education!
Emily
Apr 2, 2008 at 9:56 pm
I wonder what the Indigo Girl thinks about the CNN (and elsewhere) story of the sperm donor who has fathered three–possibly four–children who have autism…among six families who have use the donated sperm. Some nice control for the genetics there, all those different *environments*. Perhaps the real wave of the future in autism diagnosis is calling it “sperm-donor disease,” or SDD.
This likely also rules out maternally transmitted mitochondrial disorders.
The little boy (one of the four mentioned) profiled in that story is simply a beautiful beautiful child. He also appears to be a complete genius.
Marla
Apr 2, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Recovery???? Yeah right. I don’t buy it at all. There were periods in our daughter’s life where we thought there was nothing to be concerned about. That whatever we thought was going on was over. We were wrong. We also thought certain treatments and thearpies did the trick and we were wrong again. Finally, we just accepted that she is Autistic and always will be. We are full of joy now instead of chasing miracle cures that don’t exist. Another thing is our child has grown. Give some of these parents time and they will learn that it is not necessarily they methods they are using but time itself that helps. Children grow and change and continue to develop skills. Even Autistic children. I am all for funding for education to help Autistic children and insurance companies to cover some therapies but I also believe it does not take thousands and thousands of dollars a year to help a child with Autism. It is expensive yes, but some people are going over board and then claim miracles. Our child has made huge gains and we stopped therapies and “cures” after age four. She is now ten.
I would love all Autistic children to have genetic testing. I believe there is something there with genetics. Why are people afraid to do this. Because then it would be from their genes? Something would be wrong within them that caused the child’s Autism? I don’t see it that way but there must be more reasons why people seem to fear genetic testing.
In regards to comments on schooling. Despite our ongoing advocating for schooling that was fair, adequate and meeting our child’s needs….. it never happened. We tried from preschool to third grade. Some say it was because of our daughter’s cyclical vomiting syndrome but that is not true because she never had that problem before last December…well, she never had it bad enough to affect missing school. Anyway, people are living in a dream world if they think schooling is meeting the needs of Autistic children. Maybe in a few states. Not mine. Not here. Our child deserves schooling just as any child even with CVS. When advocating becomes a full time job as it did in our situation I might as well do the job myself.
Parents of Autistic children need to start stopping in at school and visiting. Watching how the day goes. Observing more than once and without notice. I was stunned with what I learned by doing that. Parents need to look at all children with Autism and insist that all children are getting quality help.
I believe that my child deserves good quality public education and if I could know that she would get that I would be thrilled. Where we are now I know that is not the case. Education is part of the answer. It is just too bad that our schools are in a real mess with funding and basing everything on test scores. There are so many problems that are being ignored. The longer Jenny Mc Carthy talks on and on and the media goes on and on worrying about the cause our kids will not be getting proper education in school. Not all schools but the majority are a real mess.
B
Apr 2, 2008 at 10:30 pm
I would be very curious to see McCarthy’s son. Sure, my daughter flapped and rocked and spun things and now she’s a happy verbal little girl. But it’s obvious she’s not “normal”. She’s made great strides, I attribute it to brain development and also our behavioral help that we have done with her. But to see her as cured? Impossible.
wskrz
Apr 2, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Ugh. I’m so glad that I had other things to do other than listen to Jenny’s latest “revelations” on CNN.
Rather than grabbing at whatever theory is going to get her headlines, why couldn’t she start advocating for education for ALL autistic kids, or for insurance coverage for ALL autistic kids instead? Wouldn’t it be better if she were a spokesperson for kids who are uninsured or for more money for special education or for more money to fund -proven- therapies for all children?
But of course, she’s “cured” her son. What should she care about the rest of us parents of autistic kids then that have to struggle with those issues?
My son has made huge strides in the past few months and it is nothing to do with diet or biomed or anything like that. I attribute his progress to love, early intervention and some fantastic therapists for speech and OT.
misha
Apr 3, 2008 at 12:03 am
I’m glad too I didn’t see this tonight. However, I found a post about it on a different community I check and the anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists were coming out of the woodwork. The ignorance and arrogance was stifling, especially when some of these people had no idea what they were talking about. It really was a sad sight to see.
Regan
Apr 3, 2008 at 12:29 am
We went out to have a really fun family dinner, so I “unfortunately” missed the show.
“…It’s simple, take the “recovered” kids to an autism STAART center at a major university, have them evaluated and then present the proof…”
What a straightforward, sensible idea. I love it.
S.L.
Apr 3, 2008 at 12:38 am
I watched it…and was glad there was nothing within my arm’s reach to throw at the television. :) Seriously, I am appalled that Jenny is out there, claiming to speak for my family. The way she carries herself, and the lies she so convincingly tells, it’s sickening. What really threw me over the edge: her saying she’d like her child to get measles (over autism). Um, that’s just brilliant.
Susan E
Apr 3, 2008 at 12:53 am
I’m watching it now. It’s making me feel ill. She’d rather her child have measles over autism? That’s just horrifying.
Guys, we need some better spokespeople. This is appalling.
Ms. Clark
Apr 3, 2008 at 1:17 am
I looked at about 50 or so photos from the premiere of “Horton Hears a Who” I think I saw 20 different poses of Jenny and her dimwit boyfriend, and maybe 10 or 15 different ones with Evan in them. In all of them he was being held. I think most or all of the other kids his size were standing on their feet next to the adults. Some of them he looked happy and some he looked anxious and there’s one where he’s got his elbows like above his head his hands pushing in on his ears to protect them from some noise.
All i can say is from those still photos the kid sure looks autistic to me. If he’s not autistic, then he’s still got sequelae from his seizure disorder and his development hasn’t caught up to normal yet.
How about at the next big celebrity shindig, Jenny puts him down (with cameramen watching) and says, “Run over to those kids there and say Hi!”
It’s one thing to have a kid interact with very familiar adults who know how to frame him to his best advantage. It’s another to put him in a group of new peers and see how he interacts.
C. S. Wyatt
Apr 3, 2008 at 1:32 am
I blogged about the CNN nonsense today when I realized they were trying to be “balanced” with lots of vaccine talk. I expect the Flat Earth Society will be part of the next CNN “Our World” special.
Most of us in research do not deny environmental triggers. Lately, the media (huffpost) are making it harder to do research. Just try to explain an IRB (institutional review board) to parents. They panic just because we legally must mention “potential harm to subject” even when there is no risk at all. I interview people. I don’t take blood or admin any physical tests. But I do have to include the standard legalese.
Someone like Kirbu reads all manner of conspiratorial motives into research paperwork. Jenny McCarthy does not help.
Why don’t we have data? Because I barely recruited 10 ASD participants for study last year. The rest were sure I was going to “manipulate” the research for some conspiracy.
Emily
Apr 3, 2008 at 9:13 am
Wyatt, that’s so true. Every board requires that verbiage, even if the only thing you’re going to do is administer a questionnaire or call them on the phone. There is such a disconnect between the world of research and science and the “lay world.” Someone ought to be better at building bridges between them, but of course it doesn’t help to have superidiots like JMac yapping in ignorance on CNN and sucking all the intelligence out of viewers.
Another Laura
Apr 3, 2008 at 10:19 am
Ditto what S.L. said about wanting to throw something at the tv.
I just recently discovered the autism universe, so this was the first time I heard Jenny speak out. Oh. My. God. Not just ignorance, but shrill ignorance.
Now she’s Jenny McCarthy, and I don’t really have high expectations for her, but CNN? My how the mighty have fallen. How utterly depressing that they hold a d-list celebrity in such high regard, with such a low regard for truth and science.
And open email to Larry King: surrender the ghost.
Most unintentionally humorous/tragic moment: when Jenny declares with overwrought emphasis: “MY SON DIED IN FRONT OF MY EYES.” And Larry goes: “your son died?” Not understanding that she meant figuratively. And by the way, how insulting and disgusting that she would liken an autism to being dead.
Try this one on for size, Larry: CNN died in front of my eyes. Last night.
biomed rocks
Apr 3, 2008 at 10:37 am
I just love Jenny McCarthy! It’s thrilling to see her speak truth to power. Hearing her express the opinions reflect thousands of parents so congently is awesome. I wish more doctors and scientists had the balls to speak out like she does- but they are in fear of expressing independent thought because it will cause their funding to dry up.
Thousands of DOCTORS and SCIENTISTS as well as parents know vaccines cause autism and many other related neurological conditions. There are to many vaccines at to young an age. It is dangerous and unnecessary. This farce that the cause of autism is unknown must stop. How many have to be needlessly sacrificed?
Many posters here can’t seem to grasp the concept that proper biomedical treatments enhance a Childs ability to prosper and reach their full potential in spite of being injured. It’s disturbing and pathetic. I shudder to think of the children that will not be helped due to this limited thinking.
To this poster that says. “She’d rather her child have measles over autism? That’s just horrifying.” I would much rather my child get the measles than have autism as well. The full recovery rate for measles in the USA is very close to 100%. Not so with autism.
Many people that post here as well as other blogs I’ve been to knock all treatments and therapies. It’s pathetic.
wskrz
Apr 3, 2008 at 10:40 am
Well, this is CNN. The network that brought you up-to-the-minute updates and live coverage of the death of Anna Nicole Smith. I miss the ol’ Ted Turner days, when it actually seemed like a -news- network and not a tabloid show.
pete
Apr 3, 2008 at 10:41 am
According to Jenny, “….Evan recovered from autism. When Evan meets doctors and neurologists, to this day they tell us he was misdiagnosed — that he never had autism to begin with….’
Perhaps I’m being too obvious, but how does one recover from something one never had to begin with?
I agree with CS, Regan and others…get these recovered and recovering children, thoroughly and objectively evaluated through a top notch University program (UNH has a super child development clinic) to determine what has occured. Absent objective data, all of this recovery and cure talk is anectodal at best and horribly misleading to vulnerable families.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Apr 3, 2008 at 11:47 am
I rather suspect that the parents whose children caught measles recently in San Diego might not agree with McCarthy’s statement.
biomed rocks
Apr 3, 2008 at 12:29 pm
RE:”I rather suspect that the parents whose children caught measles recently in San Diego might not agree with McCarthy’s statement.”
The “outbreak” of 12 where everybody recovered?
I suspect many of the parents that get the autism dx today would agree with her.
grenouille
Apr 3, 2008 at 1:31 pm
I blogged about the CNN nonsense today when I realized they were trying to be “balanced” with lots of vaccine talk. I expect the Flat Earth Society will be part of the next CNN “Our World” special.
So true, Wyatt.
It reminded me of when Larry King did an interview with Rael, founder of the Raelians, a bizarre cult in Montreal that claimed they could clone people (but conveniently had no evidence they could share).
Rael got about as much respect as Jenny from good ol’ Larry. Mr. King, he knows quality when he sees it!
You need to stick to vapid celebrities talking about inocuous subjects, pal. Your judgement is severely lacking.
Autismville
Apr 3, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Sigh..
I’m worried. Really worried that her story is contributing to a hysteria that will take away from services and research. I know many parents connect with her experience. It was not at all like mine and I feel like an outsider looking in …
We need some balance.
HCN
Apr 3, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Perhaps the next time Jenny McCarthy is spouting off stuff about measles they should have Patricia Neal sit next to her.
That would be very interesting.
(oh, and at least one of the kids in San Diego was hospitalized, and I saw somewhere that the child may have some permanent health issues now)
Ms. Clark
Apr 3, 2008 at 3:04 pm
I didn’t see Jenny make a boob of herself and Larry King, but she was described as vulgar, rude, uninformed and shrill by one person who did see her. That person was shocked that she represented and organization so poorly. But that guy was new to “Big Autism” he didn’t know that Jenny is a perfect reflection of JB Handley, who is also vulgar, rude, uniformed and shirll. No really, the evidence is all there on his blog and in his comments on other blogs and on the EoHarm Yahoo! group.
He says vulgar and degrading things to women if they argue with him. He makes statements that sound like death-threats to women he doesn’t agree with, “May God have mercy on your soul.” Which is what a judge may say to a person sentenced to death. He has threatened physical violence to at least one person. He has mocked people who have less money than he does. He has mocked them if they live in “trailers” as if living in a trailer itself made the person less than he. Maybe all the folks living in trailers after Hurricane Katrina would like to talk to him.
The man is an excellent example of someone lacking in science education and an ill-mannered nouveau riche loud mouthed fool, and Jenny is cut off the same cloth. They are a matched pair of book ends and I’m sure JB was thrilled with how shrill she was.
Regan
Apr 3, 2008 at 3:45 pm
*Sigh*
Could Larry King lay off of autism for awhile? From the descriptions, it sounds like Jerry Springer’s show in the 90’s.
I would like to see someone else, beside J.Mc. be the voice of autism for awhile–there seem to be some sensible people out there doing sensible and useful things. It would be nice to hear what they are doing.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Apr 3, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Here’s the clip with Jenny saying “I saw my child die in front of me”:
Jenny on Larry King
I don’t think it’s just us who think her performance was a little, er, inappropriate: From Gawker:
wskrz
Apr 3, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Regan, I think Kristina’s quote from Gawker explains why Larry likes doing the autism stories - “very popular conspiratorial nonsense” It brings in the ratings, apparently, accuracy and balance be damned.
And I agree. I want a new spokesperson who doesn’t come across as a rude, ranting lunatic in public and that has more credibility and responsibility when it comes to being a “spokesperson” for a cause such as this.
I had to laugh when I saw what someone said on a friend’s blog yesterday - “I really wish there was a prime time show that would flat out say ‘You should treat Jenny McCarthy’s words as you would those of some crazy drunk bimbo staggering out of a bar’” (http://www.therealmalingering.com/2007/10/02/jenny-mccarthy-worlds-expert-on-public-health/#comment-19431)
Ms. Clark
Apr 3, 2008 at 4:26 pm
‘You should treat Jenny McCarthy’s words as you would those of some crazy drunk bimbo staggering out of a bar” That would make a nice bumper sticker if it could be shortened a bit.
Maybe next time you write about Jenny, Dr. Chew, you could title the blog entry: Autism According to a Woman with the Intellectual Authority of a “Crazy Drunk Bimbo Staggering out of a Bar”. :-) (I know you would be more respectful, but I’ll have to think about quoting it myself.)
Leigh Ann
Apr 3, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Wasn’t the cardiac arrest brought on by meds they were giving him for seizures? I read the book but all I can remember was the profanity.
My son is healthy as a horse but has exhibited autistic behaviors from birth (and he had issues before birth as well). Why would studying her son help “cure” my son? It was also interesting (I watched a clip) to hear her recount the list of all the issues he still has. My son’s main issue seems to be auditory processing. It interferes with social situations, leads to frustration with leads to meltdowns, etc. To me, simplistically, auditory processing is a major part of autism. If he still has that, he is not recovered it would follow.
Leigh Ann
Apr 3, 2008 at 4:33 pm
I invented a new word–”simplistically”–feel free to quote me.
C. S. Wyatt
Apr 3, 2008 at 4:35 pm
I tire of people imagining I have to follow some mythical party line to receive funding. I can pretty much do what I want (pending IRB approval) and no one censors my work, my blog, or my speeches.
I am protected by my fellowship — just try to remove a faculty post. My salary is set like that of any instructor. I get no more or less regardless of my work.
Why do people assume I get a check from Big Pharma when I suggest vaccine research is close to a dead end? Because people want simple answers. Trigger + Genetics + x = too complex for Jenny.
Leigh Ann
Apr 3, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Wait that is a word. I thought I had misspelled it. Sorry, you can delete it all if you want.
Emily
Apr 3, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Measles kills hundreds of thousands of people every year, most of them children. The hospitalization rate for measles is 20%. Yep, I’d so rather see my child go through that than to have autism. Oh, wait. Does autism have a 20% hospitalization rate? Does it kill hundreds of thousands of people every year, most of them children? Is it a deadly respiratory illness that sometimes ends in debilitating complications for survivors? Ah, well. To each her own. With measles, the chances that Jenny would have seen her son die before her very eyes are actually much higher than the chances of that having happened with autism.
Man, I detest hyperbole. Bleh. There’s a big difference between having a developmental disorder and being dead. Big one.
S.L.
Apr 3, 2008 at 5:01 pm
And how about this stat?
Every 20 minutes, a child is diagnosed with autism.
So, 3 children an hour are diagnosed with it.
Compare that with the 27 DEATHS PER HOUR that occur due to measles.
I would never compare autism to measles, or death to autism. But since some continue to practically beg for measles instead of autism, I have to make a comparison. Perhaps those numbers will change at least one person’s mind?
Kristina Chew, PhD
Apr 3, 2008 at 5:13 pm
@wskrz and Ms. Clark,
I’ll have to think about it—-seeing her fame rests on such photos as this.
Regan
Apr 3, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Well,
I have no idea how this all is going to turn out, and as of late I am wondering if there are not more useful and helpful things for Eleanor that I could be focussing on, but having gandered over the AOA, some of JMc coverage and comments, and what is happening with Kathleen Seidel, I feel like I’m watching the decline of civilization and civility, for that matter. (Kristina being the classics scholar can lend perspective to that point of view, I’m sure). Exciting fist-pounding stuff for some, but troubling for me.
Think I will turn my attention, at least for now, back a bit more to education, education policy, and just garden-variety life in general. I suspect we will all have a better picture in 5 years about how significant yesterday’s hoopla was and whether this shakes out quite as some are prognosticating.
Everybody have a good day.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Apr 3, 2008 at 9:23 pm
It’s panem et circenses — feed ‘em what they want (eye candy too) and the crowds (ratings) will come.
DEBBIE LARATO
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HCN
Apr 4, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Go away spammer! And take your broken CAPS key with you!
Chuck
Apr 4, 2008 at 2:32 pm
S.L.,
“Every 20 minutes, a child is diagnosed with autism”
Source please?
S.L.
Apr 4, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Chuck,
My “source” is pretty much all the media, including Autism Speaks’ website (that figure has also apparently been seen on billboards in California, and elsewhere). My guess is that they get that figure from the CDC’s stats, averaging out the new cases each year, dividing them into minutes. I have seen elsewhere the number is 15 minutes.
My bigger point was that while 3 (or 4) kids will receive an autism diagnosis per hour, there will be 27 DEATHS from measles in that same hour. That figure comes from the W.H.O. website. After seeing a comparison like that, one can’t help but wonder why anyone would ever want measles over autism. Measles is a disease that can be fatal and has very serious & detrimental side-effects.
S.L.
Apr 4, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Magnets? Are you serious? That’s a new one for me. I wonder if my daughter’s playing with her gears on the fridge is benefiting her…
;)
wskrz
Apr 4, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Magnets are for my fridge and holding up my son’s drawings.
Take the magnets off the all caps keys please and go elsewhere. Preferably someplace where they teach punctuation.
Chuck
Apr 4, 2008 at 3:40 pm
S.L.,
You comparison is incorrect. You are comparing the US only rate of one statistic versus a world rate of another statistic to substantiate your argument. The statistical comparisons are biased and the actual comparisons are meaningless.
S.L.
Apr 4, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Okay, I was not attempting to draw any scientific conclusions from those figures–the bigger picture is that measles kills people, autism doesn’t. As far as I know, there are no stats on how many cases of autism are diagnosed worldwide per hour. If one supposedly existed, it would be subject to much criticism, and more than likely, inaccurate. How one gets an autism diagnosis, at what age, etc. varies widely from country to country.
The reason why people (like Jenny) in the U.S. think measles is a cake walk, is simply because we have vaccinated for it for years now. They have no clue what measles in an un-vaccinated person can look like and the lifelong effects for those who do not die from it. Just on my latest blog entry, I have individuals testifying to seeing these diseases firsthand (in developing countries, where vaccines are scarce) and those who have had measles and their own personal accounts of it. There is a reason why scientists worked hard to create a vaccine for this deadly disease, and why for years now we have vaccinated our children against it. There also a reason why the U.N. and WHO, among other organizations, are working so hard to get vaccines to developing countries and rid them of measles.
Regan
Apr 4, 2008 at 4:07 pm
We have the luxury of the debate as long as we have the herd immunity. If we lose that, perhaps there will be more immediate statistics to discuss.
3/31/08
Measles ‘Not Yet’ an Epidemic
Israel
(IsraelNN.com) The old-fashioned children’s illness measles, not often seen in western nations where immunizations are standard procedure, has somehow managed to make its way back to Israel nevertheless.
An outbreak of the virus has hit the country and is spreading rapidly at a rate of six new cases a day, according to the Health Ministry. It is not an epidemic, but the trend, which began this time with a young passenger on an El Al flight from New York City at the beginning of March, is troubling.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125733
Chuck
Apr 4, 2008 at 4:27 pm
If “herd immunity” is necessary, then the vaccines are not as effective as they need to be. What recent scientific study has determined what percent of the population must be immune due to previous exposure or immunization to achieve “herd immunity”? “Herd immunity” can never be achieved with influenza or chickenpox, so why the need for such wide spread use of these vaccines?
Regan
Apr 4, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Chuck,
I have some idea of your point of view on the matter. My point of view, after having observed and participated in some of these discussions over the past couple of years is that those who choose to see vaccines as dispensible will continue to do so, irrelevant of statistics and studies. In that event, we may at some point have opportunity to run our own in-house study on the matter, and hope that allopathic medicine have the resources to pull us or our kid through in the event that we are one of those statistics who happen to develop complications.
My concern is for those who have severe immunosuppression, are under cancer therapy, have active AIDS, or for whatever reason are medically contraindicated from vaccination. The wild-type disease would be devastating to those groups.
passionlessDrone
Apr 4, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Hi S.L. -
The problem with equating measles deaths worldwide and what might happen in the US is that it mandates a preposterous logical jump; that all other things are equal between the places we are relating.
Your chances of dying from measles are affected by things that are vasty different besides vaccination availability between the industrialized world and the places where measles is killing a lot of people; basic nutrition, access to a physician, supplementation with Vitamin A, sanitation levels, are all big factors in whether or not getting measles (or more likely, complications from measles) kills you or not.
I’m not here to lobby against a measles vaccine per se, merely to point out that it is a lot more nuanced than what is commonly presented; we cannot compare apples and oranges and have confidence in the results we come up with. No doubt, however, for trying to point out that such an analysis can lead to misleading conclusions, I will be branded as junk science, anti vaccine, a fool or worse. *Sigh*
Take care!
- pD
Emily
Apr 4, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Actually, the statistics ARE a useful comparison. That measles stat is a worldwide value that includes countries that do vaccinate. Without vaccinations, the global rate of measles deaths per hour would be even higher. Obviously, the current rate in the US is not close to the global rate precisely *because we have vaccinations*.
Herd immunity can be achieved with chicken pox–I am one example of that–and is not achieved long-term with influenza because influenza strains evolve so rapidly that they evade any existing immunity. Not a lot of herd immunity with influenza in the long-term, but there is short-term herd immunity resulting from vaccination, which helps protect vulnerable populations that cannot be vaccinated each season. In fact, it is reliance on this property that would drive any emergency vaccination effort in the event of a pandemic.
Herd immunity develops because of widespread vaccination programs. It is *necessary* for the at-risk populations who cannot get vaccines because of known complication problems (hemolysis reaction, allergic reactions, etc.) or because of age (e.g., infants too young for pertussis). The reason we don’t have a huge mortality rate among infants in this country from exploding lungs as a result of whooping cough is because of herd immunity produced through vaccination.
PubMed has hundreds of papers on herd immunity and the demonstrable effectiveness of inducing it through vaccination. Easy to search.
Regan
Apr 4, 2008 at 4:50 pm
pD,
I won’t label you as any of those things.
Admittedly, the focus of vaccination programs is on the African continent, in which 18.7% of mothers report that they have a child who has died of measles.
The measles virus, however, has a known history of being very contagious, with 90% transmission rate, and an estimate that each active case has potential to infect 6-12 of those who are not immune in which the person comes in contact with.
The only thing that somewhat makes me hesitate on whether measles transmission can completely be prevented by western conditions is that some of the most recent outbreaks have been in the UK, Italy, and Japan, and apparently is of some concern in Israel, per the above news story. I haven’t travelled to Europe recently, but I did not note a shortage of basic medical care or sanitary conditions.
Chuck
Apr 4, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Herd immunity cannot be achieved with chicken pox, my son and I are examples of that.
Emily
Apr 4, 2008 at 5:23 pm
I was not, of course, citing my situation as the sole evidence for that statement. I was simply saying that I, myself, benefited from the herd immunity for that particular illness for a long time, not having had it as a child (didn’t attend schools early on and thus was not exposed; hung around with a lot of old people who’d already had it). But after I began attending school, I was around so many more people who had already had chickenpox and thus were not vectors that I never caught it in childhood (more herd protection), even when it was around. It took a vector (i.e., someone who had not had it and could transmit the live virus) that was close to me (my sister, 13 years my junior) to finally bring me exposure via her daycare and transmit the disease. Until that time, I had community protection among my own peer group, most of whom had the disease at an age similar to my sister’s–toddler years.
Now that we have the chicken pox vaccine, there is heightened herd immunity even in this age group, and I actually don’t personally know a child my children’s age (<7 years) who has had chicken pox (an unheard of scenario 30 years ago), although I know that a single shot of the vaccine does not result in total coverage. There is a case currently at my youngest son’s school, but I do not know the background on it (i.e., age of the child, etc.). What I do know is that were this case to have developed prior to the varicella vaccine, the entire school would have been shut down–I was actually told that yesterday–until the two-week time frame had passed and all the children had recovered–infection of everyone in that age group would be a given. That brings to my mind a clear spectre of medical, economic, and productivity losses, all from this single school and beginning with one case of chicken pox, losses that likely would ultimately spread throughout the community. That scenario did not transpire, and we have the (partial) success of that vaccine to thank for that.
As someone who had chicken pox pretty late in the game, I can tell you that it completely sucks, it scars, and it’s painful. I’m glad that I can get my children a quick shot to prevent their having that experience. In my childhood, it was either avoid public exposure completely (as I ended up doing), or suffer the course of the illness, with all of the attendant repercussions spreading through families and communities.
Again, PubMed is a useful source for abundant information about the medical, social, and economic consequences of herd immunity.
Tanya
Apr 4, 2008 at 5:57 pm
I am mom to a child with autism. So when I hear other parents down talk Jenny McCarthy I have to cringe. Let’s get this straight, I am not a a DAN follower. One of the first websites I visited when my son was diagnosed was DAN and I wasn’t too impressed then. I’m still not. But she is a parent who clearly loves her son and has advocated for him. Calling her vapid and linking to photos of her on the toilet are perhaps not the signature of an thinking adult. I too watched the Larry King show and read the transcript. Unfortunately I have listened to many stories of parents who have said their child was perfectly normal before they had immunizations and then afterwards they regressed. I am of the opinion that there should be more than one immunization schedule parents have to choose from. And when more research and I mean longer term research is done let some of the money given to research help fund schools for autism programs and perhaps bigger grants with less restrictions. Or umm I don’t know easing some of the financial tragedies some parents go through. I too would like to focus more on treatment. In my opinion it will take a lot more research that what we already have to find the answers. But its a good place to start.
Chuck
Apr 4, 2008 at 6:00 pm
My anecdotal information is contradictory to yours. My vaccinated son developed chicken pox. It is also contradictory to medical information about the vaccine that his case was just as bad as mine when I was his age. When I had chicken pox as a child the absentee rate for my class was no different then every other class and the absentee rate was normal for that time of year, winter and most were absent with colds. Thirty years ago, or today, schools are not closed down due to a case of chicken pox. The situation you describe is fictional to my past and present experiences.
I subsequently developed shingles from my son’s chicken pox. I can tell you that shingles puts chick pox to shame. I was in pain and I have a high tolerance for pain.
Let me know if you pull up any studies on the chicken pox vaccine increasing the likelihood of shingles outbreaks.
Regan
Apr 4, 2008 at 6:04 pm
PubMed Central Archives where anyone can seek these studies for themselves.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/
Free and full text articles
“herd immunity” 618 citations
“herd immunity” + “measles” 182
“herd immunity” + pertussis 98
“herd immunity” + rubella 110
“herd immunity” + varicella 30
“herd immunity” + polio 76
Etc.
There was a pithy description of Herd Immunity.
“…Herd immunity is achieved when there is a sufficient level of vaccine protection in the population to prevent circulation of the disease to those who remain biologically susceptible. Even in a fully vaccinated population, some individuals remain susceptible to the disease against which the vaccine was administered. No vaccine, even one that works well, is 100% effective at inducing sufficient immunity. Further, not everyone in the population is capable of generating immunity, even to an effective vaccine.
BUT, with herd immunity, the likelihood of two susceptible individuals being within range for transmission is very, very small…”
Freeman, P. (1997). The Biology of vaccines and community decisions to vaccinate. Public Health Reports, 112, 21.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1381832
Sidebar,
On doing this, I located an interesting paper which is kind of mathematical, on the dynamics of vaccinating behavior. The modelling itself is complicated, but the description of behavioral variables and dynamics is not.
Bauch, C.T. (2005). Imitation dynamics predict vaccinating behaviour. Proceedings of The Royal Society: Biological Sciences, 272, 1669-1675.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1560180
Emily
Apr 4, 2008 at 6:46 pm
I already mentioned–clearly–that the vaccine does not have full coverage and actually gave an example of that in my son’s current school. It’s one reason for the movement to two shots instead of one. So my information was not contradictory to yours, at all. It still does not negate the absolute fact that without the vaccine, the outcome at my son’s school would have been significantly more negative and have affected an enormous number of families throughout the community, rather than one family. The vaccine does not confer 100% coverage, which I mentioned, and I demonstrated that nevertheless, without it, the outcome would have been much much worse.
Again, you appear to be another poster more intent on an effort at verbal sparring than at actual investigation of information. The question you ask finds easy and direct answers with a basic PubMed search. Of course there is a link between chicken pox and shingles, given that the same virus causes both. It is absolutely common for the virus to reappear in an individual who has already had it–even decades before–in the very painful form of shingles. That’s a function of the virus, not of the vaccine, and it’s not something that would spread like wildfire through a community causing significant medical and social and economic adverse outcomes.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Apr 4, 2008 at 8:16 pm
@Tanya,
I often wonder if, without the Candies ad and other of the sorts of photos one finds on the web of McCarthy—-if she would be a recognizable name now…….. Her latest performance speaks for itself, I think.
Here’s a post on the NIH’s autism research portfolio. Education is definitely the place to start and stay on. Best wishes—-
As for magnets—-one of my middle school students (back in the 90s) had to wear them for migraines. She rolled her eyes when I asked her what thought of them.
jess
Apr 4, 2008 at 10:10 pm
I have a more of a question than a comment, as I am a young mother who is coming up to her daughters 15 mo vaccinations which includes MMR. Does anyone believe that post-poning the MMR to a later date changes anything. I tend to believe that their is no link but given all the Media and Jennys out there it’s easy to be challenged. So should I stick with the schedule, wait a little longer or not vaccinate?
Kristina Chew, PhD
Apr 4, 2008 at 10:38 pm
@jess,
Have your daughter’s gross motor, fine motor, speech, play skills, communication/speech been developing more or less normally so far?
My son’s were not—–in particular, he did not have joint attention: He did not try to share his interest in something, such as a toy or something he saw, with us.
I am not a physician—I would say, it’s important to vaccinate; the recent outbreak of 12 measles cases in San Diego was very scary. What does your pediatrician say about this issue?—-here’s a website about vaccines via the AAP:
http://www.cispimmunize.org/
A friend whose first child is autism decided to space out the vaccines for her younger son. The younger son does have some speech delays; his development is otherwise typical. Hope this is somewhat helpful.
Chuck
Apr 4, 2008 at 11:25 pm
Emily,
Your verbal sparring skills are as finely honed as mine. We have both been exposed to very similar circumstances and have recounted them through our own experiences and biases. We have both presented information that we have deemed to be factual that the other determines to be nothing more than opinion. We have both misinterpreted what the other has said because of our experiences and biases. We both project very different outcomes to similar situations. After all is said and done, it is nothing more than anecdotal information at it’s finest.
Tanya
Apr 5, 2008 at 12:22 am
Kristina Chew,
I understand that her very strong opinions on Larry King may have caused the presumably well respected doctors to not take her seriously after the “measles” and “BS” bit. Seriously, do we need to attack her character. Autism doesn’t care if mom is Playmate of the Year or Super,Stay-at-home Soccer Mom of the Year. Oh yeah! Magnets
Magnets?
Kristina Chew, PhD
Apr 5, 2008 at 12:27 am
@Tanya,
I was referring to some earlier comments by others on magnets—–it always seems that there’s a new theory on autism! I should have clarified that.
I think McCarthy’s character and various exploits are one reason behind her being a (notorious) celebrity and behind her attracting attention to autism (and her views on it). Very best wishes——–
jess
Apr 5, 2008 at 7:27 am
My daughter seems perfectly normal is all areas to me. I spoke with my ped. and he says there is no connection between the two. He went through the whole discussion about the preservatives Therimisol being removed etc…However I recently came across the argument that RhoGam also contains Therimisol and I have had the RhoGam both during pregnancy and after. Now is this something else I have to be concerned about?? Thanks for the website I will check it out.
Charlene Westman
Apr 5, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Arguing over a “medical model” vs. “educational model” to me has always sounded like a slightly nicer way of saying- “We couldn’t possibly pay for your child’s treatment.”
Kristina Chew, PhD
Apr 6, 2008 at 1:41 am
@jess,
here’s a study that found no link between rhogam and autism:
Lack of association between Rh status, Rh immune globulin in pregnancy and autism
The study notes that until 2001, Rh immune globulin (RhIg) contained thimerosal, so theories about a connection between RhoGam and autism may have arisen from that. But there’s no connection. From the study:
jess
Apr 6, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Thank you so much Kristina. You’ve been very helpful.
This Week’s Top Posts
Apr 6, 2008 at 8:01 pm
[…] Autism According to JennyJenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey on CNN: “We believe autism is an environmental illness.” […]
Robin H. Morris
Apr 7, 2008 at 2:18 pm
When this hot topic appears, we all login from our particular corners. One note for certain, arguments are never won when hysteria enters the ring. I too, blogged on Jenny McCarthy’s giddiness and subsequent shrill vernacular. I diffused her points, whatever they were meant to be. Given that I don’t subscribe to her message, I was more upset than amused.
I love Ms. Clarks point about the pictures of Jenny’s son Evan being “held” at all events. True, it would be most positive if he was able to behave like an appropriate kid his age.
On another note, the comment abouut Rhogam is interesting, Kristina. I am RHNegative and did receive the Rhogam. Only one of our quadruplets has autism.
Mike
Apr 13, 2008 at 3:45 pm
What, Americans are no longer allowed to “believe” or have an opinion? “We believe autism is an environmental illness.” What makes one opinion or belief better than another? Why is her belief being lambasted? Doesn’t she have enough “time” invested in this subject to have a valid opinion?
I believe Jenny has studies this more than most here and her points are valid. We already know there is a gut-bad digestion autism connection. We also know that not having the capacity to eliminate toxins is a problem, thus, toxins are the cause by default. Where do those toxins come from? The environment, vaccinations, food, etc. Can one pin the blame solely on one thing? No. However, if we know that vaccines contain a toxin that causes brain damage (according to Eli Lilly internal studies 20+ years ago) and we know that the rise in autism began around the same time Bush-1 started to increase vaccinations from 3 before 1st grade to 35, including one before a child leaves the hospital, and Bush was on the BOD of Eli Lilly as are many current Bush-2 lackey’s, and we also know that both Bush’s are for a “New World Order” that calls for population control, and we know that Bush-2 gave Eli Lilly immunity from litigation from harm done by their vaccines in the Homeland Security Act (without debate, last 4 provisions snuck in), what else can one deduce when they know all of the facts here?
Kristina Chew, PhD
Apr 13, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Lots of opinions about autism indeed!
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