Autism Vox

88 opinions for David Kirby (and the supposed vaccine-autism link) deconstructed, yet again

• Leila
  Sep 27, 2008 at 10:27 pm

  David Kirby is the Sarah Palin of the antivaxers…

• joe harris
  Sep 28, 2008 at 4:31 am

  Dear Mr. Rahul K. Parikh
  You got your but kicked on the New America Media article parents duped by junk science.
  You could not debate your self out of a wet paper bag on this very important issue. You bugged out when a couple of parents who knew their s##t put you in your place. I will debate you any time, but I think you are to chicken to debate someone that knows the science and all the dirty tricks that the CDC has pulled to hide a generation of lost damaged kids you and people like you should be considered more dangerous than a terrorist. Below is from the article you
  wrote parents duped by junk science

  This DR.does not no the science, He is most
  likely being paid to write these lies for big pharma or the CDC. They and the CDC know that they have destroyed a generation of children. The good DR. attacks DR. Wakefield, I wonder If the good DR. knows Wakefield’s work
  has been replicated three times across the world. And as far as his work being removed
  from the journal for perceivable conflict of interest. Maybe he the good DR. can explain how Verstraeten work getting in the AAP
  journal when he had not worked for the CDC in
  three and a half years, He went to work for
  Glaxo.S.K which at that time was in litigation against parents for thimerosal
  damage. Seems to me he had more of a reason
  to be removed than did the honorable DR.Wakefield. So much for prestigious journals, I now laugh when when someone
  asks is that peer reviewed: and in a
  prestigious journal, Verstraeten earlier
  work, You know where he found a link. Before
  he was hired away by GSK has been destroyed out of the VSD. dishonorable gerberdine was warned before that happened
  by DR.and congressman Dave Weldon, and the office of special counsel, that the earlier work was in danger of being destroyed.
  And it was. So now who has junk science?
  and has to destroy earlier work so the real
  scientist don’t get a chance to evaluate it?

  SO WHOS BEEN DUPED NOW

  Your readers should know this most parents
  know the science better than the the very
  conflicted Dr’s. who create science that is inaccurate, created out of self-interest,

• joe harris
  Sep 28, 2008 at 5:15 am

  This was also another post that went
  unanswered by Rahul K. Parikh notice I left out the Dr. before his name you see you must earn that title not buy it. hey Rahul remember this
  oath “Primum non nocere” “First, do no harm”
  It seems to be now ,
  Make money at any and all cost

  With all of these strikes against the Geiers, how could their work get published? The fact that there are two types of journals explains this. There are those journals in which studies submitted for publication are carefully peer reviewed. And there are those that are not, allowing dubious work to slip by. The Geiers published this study, as well as all of their others, in the latter kind.

  I tried very hard not to bring my experience
  with a journal in which studies submitted for publication are carefully peer reviewed. in this forum. As the good DR.
  wrote. This actually happened, When I found out Verstraetens work was moved 5 times to
  almost no side effects and put in the
  prestigious journal of the AAP. I called
  down to the journal and asked how his work could have been put in their journal when he had not worked for the CDC in three and a half years. Would that not present a conflict of interest I asked ? and what if any thing would
  be a conflict of interest at their journal?for he was working at glaxo S.K, which at that time was in litigation against parents for thimerosal damage which presents a direct conflict of interest. Keep in mind there was only one call and both her and I were very calm she then told me that was a very good question. she said she would have someone get back to me. The phone rang I answered it, It was blocked unknown name unknown number. The man identified him self by saying quote “I am the top doc of this journal and I am telling you if you call us back if you bother us again on this issue there will
  be a knock at your door and you know what that means “. I did not say anything at first
  I just thought about what he had said, Then I said what did you just say to me. he said quote
  “you heard me ” and then he hung up the phone
  So you now, know why when asked, is that peer reviewed and in a prestigious journal
  I laugh. Would a prestigious journal call the dad of a severely mercury poisoned child who was only trying to find out why Verstraetens work was published. If he was so clearly conflicted by working at GSK It’s things like this that make you wonder about conspiracy not saying there is one.
  But he the top doc wanted to put the fear
  in me for some reason. Later I found out what
  made him so paranoid they the CDC was practically begging the journal to publish the Danish study which was clearly fraud
  you talk about dubious work. With the danish study claiming that when the thimerosal was removed the incidence of autism actually went up, then declared that there must be a “neuro-protective” effect on children in thimerosal. thank GOD
  for the FOIA a review of e-mails exchanged between the Danish researchers and the CDC reveals that the statement “From 1991 until 2000 the incidence increased and continued to rise after the removal of thimerosal from vaccines, including increases among children born after the discontinuation of thimerosal” may not have been true.
  In an e-mail on 11/13/2002 at 09:24, “co-author” Marlene B. Lauritsen informed Drs. Madsen, Thorsen and Schendel of the CDC:
  “But the incidence and prevalence are still decreasing in 2001″.
  The sentences, before and after that unequivocal statement, were blackened with a magic marker before they were released through the Freedom of Information Act.
  why must we put up with with people at HHS
  who will accidentally poison our children and then lie about it when caught then waste precious time and money trying to
  cover up their lies and deceit with junk
  studies

  PS. It is really comical to read the Emails of the CDC practically begging the journal of the AAP
  to take a good look at the Denmark study, and how well it was bought, I mean done. I was right the first time. what ever happened to a study standing on it’s own merits ? ? ? ? ? ?
  I guess when you are trying to prove a poison is
  not a poison it’s hard for something like that getting in own it’s own merits . . . .

  FOOLS STONE COLD FOOLS

• Storkdok
  Sep 28, 2008 at 10:12 am

  Hey, he found a way to make a living. Before he got involved in manufacturing the antivaccine/MMR/thimerosal idiocy, he was a journalistic hack. He’s milking this for all he can, quite enterprising of him.

  A man’s got to make a living…(heavy sarcasm) :0)

• Jess
  Sep 28, 2008 at 11:29 am

  This is essentially a problem with narrative. Love Canal, Erin Brockovich, and the story of big tobacco. Some people like that paradigm so much, they think everything fits.

• Amanda
  Sep 28, 2008 at 11:50 am

  A generation of “lost” children? Since when were we lost?

• Digger
  Sep 28, 2008 at 11:56 am

  Kristina Chew, PhD
  Thank you for being fair and balanced, that’s all we have ever asked let the chips fall where they may and let the truth be known . . . .

  Joe

• HCN
  Sep 28, 2008 at 12:17 pm

  Storkdok said “Before he got involved in manufacturing the antivaccine/MMR/thimerosal idiocy, he was a journalistic hack.”

  This morning I finished reading “Autism’s False Prophets”, what was interesting is the Kirby tried to present himself as a writer for the New York Times. So the CDC guy called the NY Times and found out he was not employed there, so when Kirby tried to get a hold of the CDC he was refused because he had misrepresented himself.

  Though to be fair, the NY Times did buy some of his free lance travel articles. While he was not really a Times reporter, he had some travel articles printed there.

  Mr. Harris seems to be doing an incoherent version of the Gish Gallop:
  http://www.theskepticsguide.org/sgublog/?p=295

• Digger
  Sep 28, 2008 at 12:33 pm

  dug this out of history hence the name Digger

  Russell being quoted as saying we would put mercury in vaccines, and other compounds to produce a partial lobotomized state My thought “this was done to control the masses.” Another thought is they did not anticipate the mercury from other sources AKA as coal fired plants and mothers body burden.
  In the next statement that Russell makes keep in mind the every child by two organization. And we wonder what happened to the kids. Russell who advocated the use of vaccines to induce partial chemical lobotomies and create a servile zombie population,”Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable,
  “My thought, where doe’s freedom come in
  to play in this maddness”
  and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible.” - Bertrand Russell, “The Impact of Science on Society”, 1953, pg 49-50 1953. Bertrand Russell, The Impact of Science on Society: “…the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology…. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated. When the technique has been perfected, every government that has been in charge of education for a generation will be able to control its subjects securely without the need of armies or policemen. As yet there is only one country which has succeeded in creating this politician’s paradise.”11 I wrote this minister because a family was not able to go to church any more because the child was banned, because he was spitting and hitting other people basically acting like an animal. Just like my child and many more hundreds of thousands around the U.S. while the CDC says it’s just better Dag. and greater awareness as our schools go broke, by the way my son was just Dag 3 yrs ago he is now 17 yr old, by the way one of the signs of metal toxicity is excessive saliva I am not saying that most of the main stream medical community believed in this mind set of a step ford society but someone must have, because they ignored many warnings of toxicity and inefficacy and we find in 2008 they did exactly what he said they would do This was written in 1953 and the current main stream medical community has followed it like a recipe. The people who wanted a kind of step-ford society did not anticipate the mothers body burden of mercury or coal powered plants emitting mercury. This caused a toxic tipping point and 1 in 5 kids having a neurological learning disorder 1 - 150 children with autism 1 in 92 being boys. In MN the numbers are worse 1 - 82 children 1 - 20 something boys interestingly a 4 - 1 ratio boys to girls guess what shares a 4 - 1 ratio mercury poisoning. we cannot change the fact that the book was written and he said it and they did it sincerely Joe Harris Dad of a very sick in body, child
  Next post will be the proof that they had decades of warnings and ignored everyone
  of them by the AMA grant to Dr. Engley

  His own words ” This is as toxic as it gets down to one one millionth of a gram ” he speaking of , Thimerosal, Kinda hard for me to believe the CDC
  statement that this is “the friendlier gentler kinder mercury” that sorta like saying
  He,s a friendlier gentler kinder murderer
  also when he said it he was wrong. We now know thimerosal is two and a half times more toxic, and it not fish metabolizes into inorganic mercury which we now know thanks to Dr. poling is the most damaging to the mitochondria not to
  mention the aluminum and the vaccinal MSG all said to cause mitochondria disorder and dysfunction not disease seems we may have stumbled on to what Autism really is, since all the ingredients in children’s vac’s can cause it…

• Digger
  Sep 28, 2008 at 12:58 pm

  HCN let’s see you defend the buying of studies and destroying of the earlier data sets before
  the other sides real scientist could reevaluate it.

  Not to mention starting the IOM meeting off with
  Walt wants you to declare these are pretty safe on a population basis, and later she Marie
  McCormick says what Walt want Walt generally gets

  Walter A. Orenstein, M.D., Director of the National Immunization Program (NIP), Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). …

  That’s like saying before we play this hand of cards I need to stack the deck. ( I cannot lose
  can I )

  Maybe that’s why the IOM informed the CDC lately that they should seek good counsel

  But if you are wondering what was on the minds of the IOM, I sure can help you out there.
  Straight from the minutes of the IOM meeting

  “We’ve got a dragon by the tail here,” states a committee member in the
  transcript. “At the end of the line, what we know is - and I agree -
  that
  the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
  people
  are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
  that
  will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
  the
  trap, I think, is the charge.”

  My thoughts are you are not caught in a trap unless you find something. And then you have the IOM trying to justify their lie to the American public by reminding themselves the alternative is people not vaccinating, and how dire that would be. What about not stopping the mass poisoning of children?

  like I said FOOLS STONE COLD FOOLS

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 28, 2008 at 1:12 pm

  @Joe Harris,
  An interesting exchange regarding the CDC, the AAP journal, and others—-where were you able to read about those email exchanges that you cite? There are indeed differences between the journals such as the AAP’s Pediatrics and the journals that have published the Geiers’ work: The Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, which has published many of their papers, is put out by a group, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, which is run out of a small office in a strip mall in Tucson, Arizona.

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 28, 2008 at 1:16 pm

  I think it’s reasonable to say that the CDC, the IOM, and the scientists and researchers involved did not perhaps take sufficiently into account how reports about vaccines and mercury and “safety” would be interpreted by the public, and the extent to which anything they say would be scrutinized and over-scrutinized. They haven’t, that is, been able to best and convincingly communicate their message to the public and I think this has something to do with all the talk of conspiracies and the misinformation out there.

• Liz Ditz
  Sep 28, 2008 at 1:22 pm

  Leila, sorry, Dawn Crim is the Sarah Palin of anti-vaxxers. Kirby is Dan Quayle.

  Joe Harris: repeating inaccurate information does not constitute proof. Ad hominem attacks does not constitute proof.

• Digger
  Sep 28, 2008 at 2:14 pm

  As promised on Dr. Engley

  this is proof they knew that the preservative was not effective as a antimicrobial and very toxic also. Please note Dr. Engleys vast amount credentials.

  Dr. Frank Engley studied thimerosal as far back as 1942. Dr. Engley is responsible for the 4 year School of Medicine at the University of Missouri. He has consulted for the CDC, IOM, NASA, FDA, EPA, CIA, AAMI, USP, Armed Forces Epidemiological boards, Army, Navy, Air Force as well as Director of research grants and training grants for NIH. Engley Served on the Council of the NIH Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease and a consultant on many Epidemiological Boards too many to list. Dr. Engley has been a visiting Professor in over 40 foreign countries medical schools. He has produced films, written text books, Laboratory Manuals, over 100 publications, served on editorial boards for numerous scientific journals and periodicals, including four American, two British and one German. Engley is certified by the American Board of Micro Biology and served as the Chair of the Laboratory of American Public Health Association. He has been listed in American Men and Women of Science, Who’s Who in America, Who’s Who in American Education, Who’s Who among Consultants and Who’s Who in the World. His toxicity studies of mercurials in human tissue culture revealed the mercurials were extremely toxic for human cells and the Thimerosal — the most active, toxic down to the nanogram. The amounts of mercury have gone down but vaccines still have 100 times that amount when they are in preservative free and reduced thimerosal vaccines.

  A reasearcher with a conscience Hum! what a concept, seems that not to be the case any more in the CDC, IOM, AAP, NIH, conscience
  seems to be in short supply in these agencys any more.

  His findings not mine

  There was an interim plan in the 80’s to get rid of thimerosal this came out at Congressman Burtons hearing on thimerosal. Dr. Engley was reported as saying on an KOMU article that “if they had followed through on our 82 report the vaccines would have been freed of thimerosal and all this autism they tell me would not have occurred” THEY DESTROYED OUR CHILDREN FOR NO BENEFIT NOT TO MENTION BEING WARNED BY
  Dr. Engley and other Scientist with integrity, this is their findings of toxicity”We found thimerosal is toxic down to a level that is almost unbelievable. Down to 1.10, maybe 100 nanograms…a millionth of a gram and that is about as toxic as you can get,” he said.” But the FDA, and the CDC did not listen 200 PPB is liquid toxic waste the chidren from the 90’s, some received 32,500 Parts Per Billion at one setting on one day. And we wonder what happened to the kids HCN or Storkdok care to defend 32,500 ppb when 200 ppb is liquid hazardous waste

  verstreaten work/studie was a child recieving 62.5 micro-grams by age 3 mos has a 2.48 times risk Storkdok / HCN care to calculate the risk at 162.5 on one day at one setting
  and then maybe add 1 or 2 at 25 micro-grams
  ea. roghams passing in to the child from a new mother. Now add 25 micro-gram a flue shot do you now get the stupidy of this mistake that they have made? We are now in the astrnomical
  times risk feel like a fool yet?? if you cannot see the damage done after I put this in laymens terms then you should.

  Hey Storkdok how can you remove thimerosal
  and then say pregnant women and children 6 - mos to 2 yrs are at risk for complications of the flu all the while knowing pregnant women should not be exposed to the product Thimerosal by order of the manuf. MSDS sheet seems they should know their product better than the bumbling CDC also the latest on children 6 - mos
  to 2 yrs get absolutely no benefit except that of a placebo effect from the inactivated flu vac.
  so either the Dir. of the CDC is stupid or worse pumping the numbers up. AKA a terrorist and since the statement “that said we have a plan in place” when talking about having to removeal of thimerosal I am inclined to believe she is far from stupid I think Pure EVIL fits this woman . . .

• Digger
  Sep 28, 2008 at 2:33 pm

  Ah! but kristina would they call a dad of a severe
  vaccine damaged child when they really should have ignored me instead. I think because of the emense pressure that the journal was under for looking at the Denmark study and already putting the verstreaten debockale in their journal, after all you can only ask so many favours before this guy apparently broke. And I happen to be his whippen post that day I only wish I would had been recording my call that day. for it
  would be very interesting for a senator or congressman to ask just what did you mean
  when you said there would be a knock at this mans door ? as you can see I am not the greatest writer but I do get my point across. Again Dr. Chew thank you for allowing a different point of veiw in your forum. it truley is fair and balanced….

• Digger
  Sep 28, 2008 at 3:15 pm

  Liz ditze funny you mentioned Dan Quail remember he could not spell potato and
  he was laughfed at. It doe’s seem he got the last laugh though after all his family owned the biggest stock in Eli-lilly co which was the main
  perp in making thimerosal just what was it that Eli-lilly did not understand about Engley findings
  It is clear from this research supported by a grant from the American Medical Association that Thimerosal is neither efficacious nor safe, and
  should be removed as a preservative in prescription biologics and
  pharmaceutical products, as well as from topical over-the-counter products such as Butt-Balm that have Thimerosal present in their formulations as an active ingredient.
  Dr. Engley and other Scientist with integrity, this is their findings of toxicity”We found thimerosal is toxic down to a level that is almost unbelievable. Down to 1.10, maybe 100 nanograms…a millionth of a gram and that is about as toxic as you can get,” he said.”

  getting to the point that Dan got even, his company poisoned a generation of children
  so yes he did get the last laugh….

• Ed
  Sep 28, 2008 at 4:07 pm

  I remember the Denmark study. Autism went up as thimerosal was removed from all vaccines. Peer review is done to be sure that the studies are understood well enough that it can be replicated. What is remarkable about peer review is that it does nothing about the conclusions derived from the data. In the Denmark study one of two conclusions are possible: A little thimerosal helps prevent autism; Something else contaminated the data. The second conclusion is the right one. That makes the peer reviewed study that the CDC referred to for years worthless.

  I should note that the autism rate in Denmark after removal of thimerosal from vaccines was the same as that of the United States before the vaccine push. But the correct conclusion from the study is that something else besides thimerosal influenced the data. Therefore no conclusion can be made about thimerosal. Either conclusion could have been derived from the data depending on what slant you want to take. Both would have been wrong.

  The junk science continues. From the University of Syracuse, there is a study that shows that thimerosal disappears from the bloodstream after three days. The measurements and the data are correct. The experiment can be duplicated. Peer review passed it through. But the conclusion? Thimerosal is excreted and therefore safe. It is innane in light of the medical definition of mercury as a cumulative toxin.
  The pro-vax community screams “Junk Science” for anyone and anything that is anti-vax. Junk science exists on both sides.

  The proper way to settle this argument is to do the experiment right. Compare the autism rate among the vaccinated against the unvaccinated. Two percent of the US population refuses to have their children vaccinated. The unvaccinated population exists. And no, there is no genetic issue with such a study. The unvaccinated population are not inbred.
  If I were on the pro-vax side trying to prove that there is no connection between autism and vaccines, I would be eager for such a study to be done. So far, when I see such a study mentioned, the reaction among the pro-vax spokesmen is a puffing of feathers and a dismissal of any such idea.
  Will we ever see such a study done? Not if the pro-vax community gets its way.

• HCN
  Sep 28, 2008 at 5:28 pm

  Mr. Harris, explaining that Mr. Kirby misrepresented himself is not an ad hominem. He did claim to be a NY Times reporter when he was in fact a free lancer who sold travel stories to the NY Times. If you have any evidence that he was actually employed by the NY Times, please present it. So far my searches on the NY Times website only brings up travel articles written by David Kirby, and book reviews by another David Kirby (who is an English professor).

  This sets up the kind of truthiness you can get from Mr. Kirby. Calling him a liar is not an ad hom, but a statement of fact based on his observed behavior.

  Describing your mode of argument as a “Gish Gallop” is also not a ad hom, but a description of your posting style. You are not addressing anything about the substance of the description and fallacies made in Mr. Kirby’s presentation. You are cutting and pasting stuff you have used over the past few years (including your misinterpretations of Bertrand Russell, which you have been called out on in the past), as evidenced by the truncated lines (which have a line break in the file you did a Ctrl-C from).

  Plus I remember you posting those same things on other blogs, like here:
  http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/05/some_monkey_business_in_autism_research.php#comment-892700

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 28, 2008 at 6:13 pm

  On a similar note to what HCN pointed out about David Kirby and his free-lancing for the New York Times: This past summer, Kirby announced that he was giving lectures at Brown University, at New York University, and at Northeastern University. In the case of NYU, there is a professor on the NYU law school faculty who posts sometimes on Age of Autism; in the case of Northeastern, on the faculty there is Richard Deth, who has done research on autistic children not being able to excrete neurotoxic metals, is registered as a paid expert witness in the vaccine litigation omnibus proceedings.

  Kirby was not (as far as I can tell) invited by those universities; he was not invited by any academic departments of those universities. It is possible to rent out rooms and other space from universities; Kirby was then able to say that he was speaking “at” (as in physically) Brown, NYU, Northeastern. But he was simply speaking there because that’s where space was found, but the way the talks were announced suggested that those universities were lending some kind of legitimacy to what he was saying, and that was not (again, as far as I can tell) the case.

  More about this here:

  http://www.autismvox.com/more-talks-by-david-kirby/

• Digger
  Sep 28, 2008 at 7:26 pm

  “Bernadine Healy, the former head of the US National Institute for Health, admitted they had altered evidence on the epidemiological studies conducted by the US Government to suit the official line. She admitted the evidence both the US and UK relies on is useless.

• Digger
  Sep 28, 2008 at 7:34 pm

  seems the house of cards is falling on
  the vaccine program but there will be
  reprocuctions, less chronically sick children.

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 28, 2008 at 8:28 pm

  @Digger,

  is there a source for the quote regarding Dr Healy?

• Regan
  Sep 28, 2008 at 9:15 pm

  The quote, including the missing closed quote, is cut and pasted from a story in the Sunday Sun, (UK).

  At least in that story, the attribution for the statement is from Andrew Wakefield at a press conference.

• Digger
  Sep 28, 2008 at 9:38 pm

  Regan is right that,s the source the UK Sun the fact that Dr. Healey has a conscience and may have very well said this should not come as a surprise, remember her saying that she could not believe they the CDC would not want to save a sub population that seems to be right now 1 - 82 children. The CDC believes that these children deserve to be like they are sick because they
  just have bad genes. no in fact I wish they really believed their stupidity it would be easier than to find out that your country has poisoned your child, seems to me the dad of one of the children that cannot dump heavy metals that the CDC is much more sick in the head mentally and morally bankrupt….

• Ed
  Sep 28, 2008 at 10:51 pm

  Being a mercury compound, thimerosal has a wonderful property as a preservative. No matter how it is chemically changed it is still a mercury compound and therefore toxic to all cellular life. I can see why the vax industry would use it as a preservative.
  Having said that, I want it stopped. I do not care if the proof that it is unrelated to the autism epidemic is irrefutable. I want it stopped. It is a cumulative toxin. I do not want vaccines adding to the mercury load that I bear or my children bear. It is a neurotoxin. I do not want it in the bloodstream where it can migrate to the brain. I want it out of vaccines and out of the processes to make vaccines.

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 28, 2008 at 10:59 pm

  I think we need Wakefield’s source for quoting Dr. Healy on that; I had quoted Wakefield’s Sun quote here.

  We all already have mercury in us due to living on this planet so even if it’s out of vaccines, it won’t be out of us.

• HCN
  Sep 28, 2008 at 11:05 pm

  Mr. Harris said “now 1 - 82 children”

  Reference please.

• Digger
  Sep 28, 2008 at 11:11 pm

  Minnesota reporting 1 - 82 children and remember like mercury poisoning a 4 - 1
  Ratio boys to girls in autism…

• Digger
  Sep 28, 2008 at 11:32 pm

  Dr. chew do you not think it is hypocritical for the NIH to be having a push to get Thimerosal out of everything in the NIH to a point of actually getting the people at the NIH to sign a pledge complete with a mercury mascot. Lets see tell a pregnant woman they are at risk for complications of the Flu and also children 6 mos.
  to 2yrs of age all the while knowing that the MSDS of Thimerosal states that pregnant women should not be exposed to their product Thimerosal.
  children 6 mos to 2 yrs get absolutely no benefit
  except that of a placebo effect from the inactivated Flu vaccine
  so put it in preg. women and children, but keep it the hell out of our reach…. I think I made my point now Dr. chew doe’s this really make sense

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 29, 2008 at 12:03 am

  I think the NIH’s statements and policies are made with great care, expertise, and scientific knowledge.

  Regarding rates of autism in Minnesota, a 1 in 81 figure has been cited, but this figure is taken from a chart made up from data from public school districts around the country. The chart was created by Dan Hollenbeck of Thoughtful House, where Dr. Wakefield is now on the staff.

  http://www.autismvox.com/minnesota-has-the-highest-autism-rate-depends-on-how-you-count-it/

• Regan
  Sep 29, 2008 at 12:58 am

  HCN,
  Thanks for pointing out the “Gish Gallop”–’hadn’t heard of that before under that name, although with the advent of ctrl-c and ctrl-v, the framework is familiar.

• HCN
  Sep 29, 2008 at 1:42 am

  Mr. Harris said “Minnesota reporting 1 - 82 children and remember like mercury poisoning a 4 - 1
  Ratio boys to girls in autism…”

  Not a very good reference, it is just a collection of phrases. Please give us the paper title, journal, author, date and page number, thank you.

• HCN
  Sep 29, 2008 at 1:49 am

  In addition to what Dr. Chew said, the rates do depend on how you count them. Just because Minnesota may have many more in the “autism” category, that does not mean that their number is universal.

  See:
  http://autism-watch.org/general/edu.shtml … “So, what is happening in Oregon and Minnesota? ….. The difference occurs because the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act lets the individual states decide the details of eligibility. They cannot be more restrictive, but they can be more permissive. As a result, most states either use a slight modification of the DSM IV criteria or have the diagnosis of autism made by a qualified medical professional. Washington does this, for example, but Oregon and Minnesota use much broader criteria.”

  So, while my son does not qualify as autistic in Washington (and he has been rejected by the Dept. of Developmental Disabilities), he might qualify in Oregon and Minnesota. Kind of a moving the marbles from one jar to another.

• C. S. Wyatt
  Sep 29, 2008 at 3:19 am

  I have written and spoken on the different criteria used in Minnesota and Oregon public schools when compared to other states. Having travelled quite a bit in the last four years, I can say that it is interesting to hear the “criteria” debates in various school districts.

  I would say, anecdotally only, the more “liberal” a state is, the more liberal the criteria for autism in the schools and even among the clinicians I have met. As a private practice psychologists told me, “We are here to help the child secure services. In other states, services don’t exist anyway.”

  A curious conclusion, granted, and one I cannot prove. But, it goes to the notion that “red/blue” is more than mere voting patterns. It is a lifestyle and even belief difference, in some cases.

  As for all the debate nonsense… I’ve been accused more than once of being a “pawn” for “Big Pharma” and whatever else people distrust. Whatever. No one has ever told me what to present at conferences or what to write. When they try that, I’ll quit and announce I was pressured to have a certain viewpoint.

  The reality is, many of us simply agree with the various studies. We aren’t paid to agree, but we tend to think alike. It’s a “hegemony” or “homogeneity” you get in a university setting. Department personnel share more than a passion for their discipline: they share ideals, in many cases.

• Digger
  Sep 29, 2008 at 10:07 am

  First part of this is written by someone on EOH
  Dr. chew we may well be causing Alzheimer’s,
  parkinson’s, Autism, with thimerosal in children’s shots and in the elderly with Thimerosal the Flu shots the paper from the cochran collaboration
  looked at all data and only found a few out of hundreds and that few was tied to you guessed it Big Pharma, I know that you are mostly from the medical community, but even you cannot defend Big Pharma. With all the proof that they hide Data that is bad for the bottom line that is
  unless you work for them!!!!

  From EOH

  I love it…..
  the writer, Chew - PhD, mocks David Kirby’s lack of medical education when he uses the words, “neuro-inflammation ” and she (Chew) states that it could “describe what happens to an elderly person who develops Alzheimers.”

  Excuse me, but Alzheimers IS the adult version of autism as far as even DAN! docs are concerned — years of flu vaccine toxins (starting, say at age 50) no doubt

  Rox

  Just my thoughts not Roxes a Flu vax program that almost every year misses the mark, their words not mine. We know the eqivolent of the IOM in the UK says that there is absolutly no evidence that the inactivated Flu vacc. even works. And there is no proof that it slows deaths in the Elderly I believe there is studies that prove this 36000 people die every year that
  number never changes, you would think that it
  would get better if it really worked, MSDS sheet
  of thimerosal says that preg. women should not be exposed to their product Thimerosal for it can cross the placenta enter the fetus causing mild
  my thoughts ADD, ADHD SPEECH DELAY , to severe mental retardation AUTISM,

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 29, 2008 at 11:33 am

  Autism in adults is autism.

• Digger
  Sep 29, 2008 at 12:20 pm

  Dr. chew Thank you for not being cruel like the neuro diverse crowd on some of there web sites their like parana ready to devour anybody who doe’s not agree with them. I have found your site some what more professional, and friendlier
  than others. But keep in mind you are dealing with a dad with a very severely sick child that
  watched Dr. Egan from CEBER when being grilled by a congressman about thimerosal. “How on his watch a generation of children was lost he was asked how come their has not been no studies done on the product Thimerosal except the ones done in 1929 on 22 people dieing of meningitis.
  They all died and we don’t know if this is safe or not” I looked this study up they were followed only one day that sickens me this man that was so cocky at first became like a worm he almost could not stand on his own two feet he was stumbling over his words and his eyes were as big as saucers it took two women from HHS to get him out of there. One on both sides of him
  holding his criminal ass up so you think they don’t know the damage they are responsible
  for. A lost generation, how a person if you can call them that, can choose to protect a worthless vaccine program or even their careers on the backs of sick children is Mind Boggling. I
  watched a normal child in two days completely
  change, Starting with a Knot at the injection site the size of a mans fist or half of a Nerf
  football shaped oval, so hot
  you could burn your self touching it. On a 27 month old leg it was like having a leg on a leg mercury and aluminum creates the production of heat old timers who pan for gold knew that alum. and merc. react violently together so what the hell is this doing in children’s vaccines? The next day three mini seizures then all he was is gone with in months all speech gone, except Daaaaaad mum If it was not the vaccines BS I watched it with my own eyes he also has very severely bad gut issues that the gastroenterologist says is just
  autism bad behavior but when the pain comes on my teenager cries like a baby he starts saying Noooooo Nooooooo then it’s becomes screaming
  and can only be calmed with Gas X Oh! but it’s all in their heads this gut wrenching pain!!! what self serving morons we have in the medical community.

  Fact #1 ethylmercury is neurotoxic and twice as
  toxic as fish mercury source; Burbacher study
  and a japanese study their own words not mine
  since it took half as much Ethy - mercury to do the same damage then I would say it’s twice as toxic…

  Fact #2 it’s accumulative in the body source; MSDS
  makers of Thimerosal…

  Fact #3 it targets the organs of the body in particular brain and the lining around the brain
  source; video of Sigma-Aldrich under oath stating that as fact…

  Fact #4 well known mercury causes neron cell death apoptosis, aluminum causes neron cell death apoptosis source ; study out of Canada their words not mine we have neron cell death, also the two salts mixed the synergy effect cell death times ten source at the simpsonwood meeting they discussed this…

  Fact #5 most children that have Autism a lot
  have high testosterone a runaway making of testosterone like a switch stuck open new science shows that glutathion is depleted by thimerosal thus stopping the body from regulating
  testosterone also a yale univ. study shows for the first time that high testosterone causes catastrophic loss of brain cells source; Yale study
  she the author found that estrogen was protective of nuron cell death sounds like Dr. Giers research, she the lead author was also
  shocked that children’s vaccines contained aluminum and mercury…

  Fact #6 all ingredients contained in children’s vaccines especially inorganic mercury can deplete the glutathione needed to excrete heavy metals and cause mito - dysfunction / disorder not to be confused with the genetic version mito disease….

  Fact #7 for every 1000 lbs of mercury emitted in the air there was a 43% increase in special education needs and a 63% increase in autism rates the study revisited found the closer to the plume the more autism and other disorders source health science center out of San Antonio
  TX study, So children exposed to airborne mercury can cause autism but vaccinal mercury twice as toxic cannot. Somebody is either very stupid or very criminal and EVIL or scared,and they have staked their entire careers on the safety of something that appears to be decimating our children. In numbers that are unbelievable…

• Jess
  Sep 29, 2008 at 2:01 pm

  “Fact #1 ethylmercury is neurotoxic and twice as
  toxic as fish mercury source; Burbacher study
  and a japanese study their own words not mine
  since it took half as much Ethy - mercury to do the same damage then I would say it’s twice as toxic…

  Fact #2 it’s accumulative in the body source. . .”

  I’m sorry, I may be new to this but I can find ample evidence online that states the exact contrary to what you have claimed. i.e., ethyl mercury does not accumulate like methyl mercury, and it is less toxic than methyl mercury (fish mercury) (though not by much).

  (Comparative Toxicology of Ethyl and Methyl Mercury
  George Lucier, PhD
  Former Director, Environmental Toxicology Program
  National Institute for Environmental Health Sciences)

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 29, 2008 at 3:22 pm

  Ethylmercury is a less toxic derivative of mercury.

  Regarding the study on powerplants in Texas and autism rates is this post; the study does not prove anything, rather proffering an idea about power plants and autism rates.

• Digger
  Sep 29, 2008 at 3:50 pm

  Jess sorry you are so wrong, that was the reason for the big hoopla over vaccines is that thimerosal is accumulative in the body, that’s what the world renown Dr. vaccinologist Neil Halsey had his pantys in a uproar over, is that the ethyl mercury accumulates in the body here is proof. it targets the organs of the body in particular the brain and the lining around the brain source; video of Sigma-Aldrich under oath stating that as fact jess they should know their own product don’t you think. You really need to read Burbacher, over two and a half times goes up in to the brain of prim-apes than doe’s that of the fish mercury. also when the CDC did a small study and said it is better than we believed the mercury clears the body even faster than we thought Burbacher had to interject you might want to check in the child again. You see it appears to clear the body but it only clears the blood another proof these jerk know what they have done. You really are a new comer
  you will not stump me on this issue, for my sons
  life is what i am fighting for. your problem is two fold one is having the very people that made the mistake investigate it’s self is like saying to Enron investigate Enron, thieves do not tell the truth, this we learned in the Enron scandal. What makes you think that the very people responsible for poisoning a generation of kids will tell the truth. I am telling you these people have no conscience left it has been scared out of them. Having to admit to the biggest screw up in history tends to do that to you. In the vacc. compensation hearings the gov. witness had to back out on testifying because they already found back in history where they done a study saying that thimerosal is dangerous and they would look very stupid not to mention possibly perjuring their selves. Seems almost everybody
  is for sale on this subject and they justify it by saying It’s for the good of the whole that a few will have to be sacrificed to save many that is plain BS because we know from history that Thimerosal is worthless as a Antimicrobial
  read !!! it’s very easy to find the truth look
  for it, and take off the blinders.
  our children were poisoned for no real benefit
  history bares this out. 1939 the US.had a Blood drive for the England war efforts that massive
  amount of blood was preserved with Thimerosal
  every bit arrived contaminated like Dr. Engley
  said useless, remember the Flu shots that over half had to be destroyed it did not work on the easiest to kill contamination. like I said for no reason, our children was destroyed, do you not understand the AMA paid for study found, Thimerosal dangerous and useless period

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 29, 2008 at 3:55 pm

  Conspiracy theorizing going on here…….

  Thimerosal was used as a preservative because that was what was available; after it was used in vaccines, the infections cause by contamination of multidose vaccines disappeared.

  Thimerosal exposure has declined and autism rates are still rising.

• Digger
  Sep 29, 2008 at 4:11 pm

  Dr. chew no just the oppsite is true remember thimerosal is vaccinal in our children and methylmercury is usually injested not injected
  and Dr. Burbacher found that it not methyl turns into inorganic mercury by two and a half times
  as the fish mercury. injested mercury goes through the bodys filters injected goe’s direct to
  the brain and lining according to Sigma Aldrich
  look up the japan study, The two should be considered equil the author said but since it took only half to do the same damage I would say it ethyl is twice as toxic.

  Remember the litless test who has a conflict, who doe’s not, that’s where the truth will be found…

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 29, 2008 at 4:23 pm

  But they’re not the same, however much one might think they should be.

• Digger
  Sep 29, 2008 at 4:33 pm

  Dr. chew you should be reading what I write
  remember Dir. gerberdine concurring that the Denmark studies are useless not to mention the Email received through the FOIA act the incidence rate of autism are continuing to
  decline that is from Denmark not go up as Anders Hviid said at the IOM meeting and as far as I can say about thimerosal in the US is that it was removed in 2004 not 2001 and the preg. women and children was pumping up the numbers I talked to the author of the Calif study and after a hour call reminding him about the preg. women
  and children getting the Flu shot and the pica
  children chewing lead toys he concluded, with you have certainly have given me a lot to think about his words volantarily said to me. I assume that is the study you were referring to so even the author of the very study you are referring to is not so sure any more. also I recieved a call from the CDC warning me to stop calling their
  scientist maybe because the scientist I had on line one day agreed that they were lying it is heavy metal toxicity but not willing to put all
  blame on Thimerosal, He said

• Storkdok
  Sep 29, 2008 at 9:23 pm

  @Digger, Joe Harris,

  If you want to learn about real mercury toxicity, read up on Minamata Bay. There was no increase in the incidence of autism after the contamination there.

  You are not going to change the fact, with all your voluminous cut and pasting, that thimerosal and MMR do not cause autism.

  I have never heard of any credible threats from the scientific community towards the anti-vaccers. There are many instances of threats recorded from the anti-vaccers towards the scientists. This hostility is misplaced. It shows how unstable the mindset of the anti-vaccers really is.

  I don’t blame anyone for my son’s autism. It is what it is, and I just work to give him the tools he needs.

  David Kirby, and all those so-called “journalists” at AOA, are making a boat-load of money off parents, and they don’t want to lose their cash cow. And the “DAN doctors” are practicing quackery. If there was ever a “conspiracy”, it is the DAN doctors and pseudo-journalists, milking parents for as long as they can. You and many other parents are so blind, you can’t see them for what they are.

• Ed
  Sep 29, 2008 at 11:08 pm

  Storkdoc,

  There has indeed been a lot of stuff that has come out on the anti-vax side that should not have been published. But the so-called professionals with their vaunted peer review have not been any better.

  All you have to do is start back at the Denmark study that the CDC and so many other pro-vax sites trumpeted. Autism went up as thimerosal was removed from the Danish vaccines. If you understand statistics, two conclusions are possible: thimerosal prevents autism; the data was contaminated by something else. The first conclusion is absurd so that the second one is the only reasonable conclusion. But instead, thimerosal and autism have nothing to do with one another. That was trumpeted for years even though the conclusion that was drawn from the study was not logical.

  A Syracuse University found that thimerosal dissappears from the blood within three days of vaccination. Conclusion: Thimerosal safely leaves the body. This conclusion came in spite of the fact that as a toxin mercury is defined as cumulative.

  An autism epidemic is a threat to the pro-vax community. An epidemic means that there has to be “something in the water” that corresponds in time and geography with the epidemic. The pro-vax community has nothing that fits this requirement as well as vaccines. Conclusion: There is no epidemic. Yet if there is no epidemic, then with nothing in the environment bringing it about, autism is a genetic disease with the same number in the previous generation as this generation. So where would these autistics be? Genetics says that they have to be in same families that bore the present generation.

  But the pro-vax side has all the experts and everything on the anti-vax side is junk science.

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 29, 2008 at 11:13 pm

  “… the pro-vax side has all the experts and everything on the anti-vax side is junk science.”

• Ed
  Sep 29, 2008 at 11:45 pm

  There is junk on both sides.

• Ed
  Sep 29, 2008 at 11:58 pm

  David Kirby and others on the anti-vax side are easy targets. They carry no credentials that would give them an “expert” label. It is easy to label what they say as junk at the first slip up they make.
  The “experts” are all on the pro-vax side. So when what they say is wrong it takes a much stronger, more cogent argument to label what they have done as what it is. Since someone like Kirby is easy to dismiss, the damage he does by saying something that is not true is not nearly as hard to unravel as something that comes from one of the experts. Take the two studies mentioned in a previous post. The conclusions could not logically be drawn from the data. But they were done by experts. The Danish study was referenced by the CDC autism website for years. The Syracuse University study has been on the CDC autism website for months. They say the right things, so the “experts” in the CDC don’t question the studies.
  This makes the junk from the experts more insidious.

• Digger
  Sep 30, 2008 at 1:07 am

  Storkdok

  this is straight from the simpsonwood minutes Dr. Weil: Page 207: ” The number of dose related relationships are linear and statistically significant. You can play with this all you want.
  They are linear. They are statistically significant. The positive relationships are those that one might expect from the Faroe Islands studies. They are also related to those data we do have on experimental animal data and similar to the neurodevelopmental tox data on other substances, so that I think you can’t accept that this is out of the ordinary. It isn’t out of the ordinary. The Seychelles Island studies and somebody said the Faeroe Islands studies both, were chronic exposures. We are not talking necessarily about chronic exposure. We are talking about a series of acute exposures and at one point in time that exposure is much greater on one day than any of the Seychelles Islands. The increased incidence of neurobehavioral problems in children in the past few decades is probably real. I work in the school system where my effort is entirely in special education and I have to say that the number of kids getting help in special education is growing nationally and state by state at a rate we have not seen before.

  this is also what maurice Hilleman was saying
  about bolus doses all at once at one point in time Truth: Dr.Hilleman; was the grandfather of Mercks children’s
  vaccine program. He told Merck that six-month-old babies who received their vaccines on schedule would receive a mercury dose 87 times higher than the Environmental Protection Agency deemed safe. Dr. Hilleman said “When viewed in this way, the mercury load appears rather large”. He wrote this in a 1991 memo to Merck officials. He was saying it is not daily allowance it’s bolus doses all at once (”When viewed in this way, the mercury load appears rather large”) It seems he was trying to do the right thing before he died.

  The official he told was Gordon Douglas, MD, the president of vaccine manufacturer Merck. So he; Dr. Gordon Douglas ignores Dr. Hilleman’s apparently very Important Warning. And if he had listened, would have spared a lot of children from being vaccine injured. but he did suggest
  adding more vaccines with mercury. So where is Dr. Gordon Douglas now? He is the Director of Strategic Planning for the Vaccine Research Center at the the National Institutes of Health (NIH).
  Is it not the CDC and people like you that say that this was very small amounts of mercury and the poison is in the dose. well I guess this professional just called you a liar, who is he you might say, well he is just the grandfather of Mercks vacc.program that’s all “Check”

  Also you mention Minamata Bay that’s just Odd
  because my son is in a video with people from
  Minamata Bay showing the exact same behavior
  as our children in all aspects “check mate”

  and what is very interesting the people made the 16 millimeter film to be a testament to not let this happen again.

  lets see 1900 to 1950 pinks mercury poisoning through teething powders

  with gratifying cures they talk about chelation
  and how fast chelation worked, they could not get a study togather before pinks was
  completly arratcated

  learn lesson ? No

  Minamata Bay people warned in a 16 millimeter video do not let this happen any more

  learn lesson ? No

  1938 the US.had a Blood drive for the England war efforts a massive amount of blood was preserved with Thimerosal every bit arrived contaminated

  learn lesson ? No

  1948
  warnings from American Medical Assocation on
  Thimerosal Dr. Engley lead investagater Thimerosal useless as a antimicrobal dangerous
  down to unbelieveable levels to one one millionth
  of a gram It’s as toxic as it gets, then he suggested to removeing it from everything it’s in
  down to but balm

  learn lesson ? No

  1982
  DR.Engley trys again all the same warnings

  learn lesson ? No

  Dr. Engley before he died was reported as saying on an KOMU article that “if they had followed through on our 82 report the vaccines would have been freed of thimerosal and all this autism they tell me would not have occurred”

  And even worse than that my son was born in 1990 if they had followed through on their 1982
  report my son would be playing football in school instead he is being baby sitted all day long
  DAMN THEM ALL TO HELL

  GAME OVER

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Sep 30, 2008 at 1:32 am

  Yes, Kirby carries “no credentials” for talking about vaccines etc.

• Digger
  Sep 30, 2008 at 1:40 am

  Dr. chew do you not see the significance of this

  Dr. Engley before he died was reported as saying on an KOMU article that “if they had followed through on our 82 report the vaccines would have been freed of thimerosal and all this autism they tell me would not have occurred”

  And even worse than that my son was born in 1990 if they had followed through on their 1982
  report my son would be playing football in school instead he is being babysitted all day long

• Storkdok
  Oct 6, 2008 at 1:46 pm

  @Digger and Ed

  You don’t have the credentials and requisite medical/scientific training to be considered an expert in this area, so cutting and pasting this “scientificiness” from various websites, which also have a problem with “truthiness” is not going to hold any weight. Following the pseudoscience of the Kirby/AOA and the many others is not going to convince anyone that your arguments have any merit. As for GAME OVER, it is concerning thimerosal and MMR as a cause of autism. You just can’t admit to yourselves that your preciously held views have no substance or proof. You want to blame someone and something instead of just accepting that this is life and getting on with life.

  @Digger, you should admit your biases and your complete lack of medical training. Making an ignorant statement like,

  “Also you mention Minamata Bay that’s just Odd
  because my son is in a video with people from
  Minamata Bay showing the exact same behavior
  as our children in all aspects “check mate”

  proves it, because you are not a physician and have no authority or knowledge to “diagnose” anything in anybody. I have seen films and spoken to physicians who are and were there and they went through the data, and you are wrong. There are many ways in which those children and adults are different from autistics.

• Digger
  Oct 6, 2008 at 4:50 pm

  Storkdok; if you cannot answer the short comings of the FDA, or CDC, after I have set before you total proof, if you cannot see it. I for the life of me cannot understand this thinking for Its like saying we as Dr.s are perfect and never wrong. Remember this, the route of delivery vaccineal vs In jested, note that the toxins in the in jested route go through the filters
  of the body where as vaccineal goes straight to the brain especially since the introduction of the HEP-B at birth. 12.5 micro-grams at birth. This is before the BBB has formed, but we also know that slicker from the FDA said that ethyl-mercury not only crosses the BBB, it also crosses the placental barrier. So if you truly have intelligence and you are a Doctor it seems you should be able to see the mass poisoning. But since you took part in the holocaust of our children then I guess it’s hard to admit you poisoned the very children you were in trusted with. The Simpson wood meeting where the Dr.s were saying that this is worse than other mercury poisonings. for as they said this was Bolus doses all at once at one point in time. it’s not just check mate it’s now! ” Game over! ” you say I copy & paste, and I know nothing I will bet this Dad of a very severely effected child by his vaccines knows more about this tragic mistake than most Dr.s that cannot stop parroting the CDC, that screwed up in the first place do your own research for God’s sake and the children…

• Regan
  Oct 6, 2008 at 5:02 pm

  But since you took part in the holocaust of our children

  Good grief. Do you think you can be a little more hyperbolic?

  If you now claim that the comparison to Minimata was invalid, then why did you make the comparison in the first place?
  This is just a Gish Gallop.

• Digger
  Oct 6, 2008 at 5:07 pm

  Storkdok The people at the simpson wood meeting were in your words professionals
  in medicine and they are the ones saying
  this is worse than the other poisonings
  because it’s bolus doses, answer them! and someone else you can’t hold a candle to and that’s Dr. researcher Hilleman from Merck a warning that went unheeded because of GREED!!!
  is GREED your reason also? or you just afraid you
  will be considered no better than Hitler. For the damage you may have caused, if you are a storkdok and not a CDC or FDA imposter.

• Digger
  Oct 6, 2008 at 5:13 pm

  storkdok you still have not answered the fact that the NIEHS has said that the work in the VSD is fatally flawed and the stuff done over seas is worse. And now for the Icing on the cake CDC’s Dir. Dr. Julie Gerberdine Concurrs

• Digger
  Oct 6, 2008 at 6:01 pm

  Regan your so gung ho you answer the questions do not attack me when you cannot answer the very valid questions. Do you know that the toxicity climbs by 10 x when you add the aluminum to the mercury it’s called the synergy effect of the two salts they are both neuro toxins but they become a super toxin when you mix aluminum and mercury. Even miners knew that the two react violently together answer this what the hell is it doing in Kids vaccines?? Dr. Engley which you could not buy for any money said It thimerosal is toxic at unbelievable levels
  “It’s as toxic as it gets” what did the industry
  and the FDA, and the CDC, not understand about his findings after all this was a AMA funded research and put in the AMA journal and the icing on the cake, it is useless as a antimicrobial. And you storkdok are right I cannot make that statement as a professional but this man can. pay close attention to what this pro says about preservative free and reduced thimerosal vaccines. It doe’s not match the hacks at the CDC, for their reputation is well earned shit. For when they chose to protect
  the billionaires at the expense of very sick children they sealed their fate in history, and
  only a complete house cleaning at the CDC,
  and FDA, starting at the top to the bottom
  will do any good… the CDC stench is overwhelming and their people, some have no conscience at all

  Dr. Frank Engley studied thimerosal as far back as 1942. Dr. Engley is responsible for the 4 year School of Medicine at the University of Missouri. He has consulted for the CDC, IOM, NASA, FDA, EPA, CIA, AAMI, USP, Armed Forces Epidemiological boards, Army, Navy, Air Force as well as Director of research grants and training grants for NIH. Engley Served on the Council of the NIH Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease and a consultant on many Epidemiological Boards too many to list. Dr. Engley has been a visiting Professor in over 40 foreign countries medical schools. He has produced films, written text books, Laboratory Manuals, over 100 publications, served on editorial boards for numerous scientific journals and periodicals, including four American, two British and one German. Engley is certified by the American Board of Micro Biology and served as the Chair of the Laboratory of American Public Health Association. He has been listed in American Men and Women of Science, Who’s Who in America, Who’s Who in American Education, Who’s Who among Consultants and Who’s Who in the World. His toxicity studies of mercurials in human tissue culture revealed the mercurials were extremely toxic for human cells and the Thimerosal — the most active, toxic down to the nanogram. The amounts of mercury have gone down but vaccines still have 100 times that amount when they are in preservative free and reduced thimerosal vaccines.

• Emily
  Oct 6, 2008 at 6:08 pm

  Good Lord. It’s a nonsense blizzard. Time to break out the mental Gore-Tex.

• Digger
  Oct 6, 2008 at 6:21 pm

  what if I were to call you retards for that is what the CDC doe’s behind your backs after they
  use you to do their dirty work. lets see they ruin you then use you, you guys really are stupid.

  Interesting I see the CDC advertises on you page

  You attacked first neuro diverse

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Oct 6, 2008 at 6:23 pm

  @Digger, I’ve also read everything you’ve written (all the information at least) on other websites, blogs, etc.. I would prefer not to hear the word “retard” used here—this is not a blog about vaccines, but a blog about autism.

  http://www.autismvox.com/the-r-word/

• Digger
  Oct 6, 2008 at 6:24 pm

  ammended
  what if I were to call you retards for that is what the CDC doe’s behind your backs after they
  use you to do their dirty work. lets see they ruin you then use you, you guys really are stupid.

  Interesting I see the CDC advertises on your page.

  You attacked first neuro diverse . . . .

• Digger
  Oct 6, 2008 at 6:27 pm

  you seem not to have any answers or refuse to
  get in over your head which is it???

• Digger
  Oct 6, 2008 at 6:30 pm

  I apologise please forgive me

• Jess
  Oct 6, 2008 at 6:31 pm

  Digger, Kristina has a point: What do you say about autism and people with autism? Barely anything. It’s kinda interesting.

• Digger
  Oct 6, 2008 at 6:39 pm

  Jess I wish my son had any humanistic qualitys
  he is a wrecking ball disguised like a boy and acts like a animal, with the labs from lab - core proving heavy metal toxicity it makes no sence
  not recovering these children….

• Storkdok
  Oct 6, 2008 at 6:49 pm

  @Digger
  You disgust me. Go crawl back under your rock you came from.

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Oct 6, 2008 at 6:56 pm

  @Digger, the many other posts on this weblog go into many details of many of the studies and references that you post. I appreciate your perservering, but please note that this is also not a blog about heavy metal toxicity, but about autism. Very best wishes to your child and family.

• Ed
  Oct 6, 2008 at 11:24 pm

  Storkdok,

  I do not claim any medical credentials. On the other hand, when medical professionals come up with a medical treatment beyond the drugs used for psychoses, I will recognize their credentials. That has not yet happened.

  When my son lost his prodigious math abilities, every one in the medical profession shrugged their shoulders. When I heard a theory that amounted to neuron self destruction, I knew that the members of the medical profession knew less than I do, and I do not know much.

  So please do not speak to me of credentials. In the world of autism, they mean nothing.

• Ed
  Oct 6, 2008 at 11:36 pm

  Storkdok,

  Am I right that your sobrique indicates medical credentials? If so, let me ask a medical question. Why do autistics have low levels of glutatione? If you do not know, can you tell me who is researching it? Can you talk to me of their progress?

• Digger
  Oct 7, 2008 at 1:16 am

  Ed these people do not know as much as a parent that has researched, after losing a perfectly normal child, and as far as science I asked them how ordering the IOM can be considered science. And not one answer has come from them, just that I am a copy and past-er. And also not one answer about the AMA paid for study of Dr. Engley It’s like I never wrote about him and after all I don’t blame them though, how can you even attempt to discredit a man with this mans credentials. He has to be right! and by saying that guess who is wrong, that’s right the CDC, FDA, and NIH, for all they have is alpha bet titles seems their science goes as far as goating a private agency in to doing what they say and destroying Verstraitens earlier work so that real scientist cannot find out how they went down 5 times to almost nothing. That must be their true meaning of science. We are all just wasting time reading about important
  issues like you brought up about the depleted glutathione and the subset that ex NIH Dir. Healey said she cannot believe they refuse to save, for they wont do any real science because they are afraid of what they will find and let’s face it, that could be very embarrassing to the alpha bet morons. now getting back to what you asked for I know they will never answer an intelligent question so I will do it for them the glutathione is depleted by vaccines that contain
  heavy metals and toxins and the worse predator is thimerosal because it depletes the glutathione
  in the mitochondria, now If one doe’s a simple google you find every thing in a child’s vaccine
  can and have caused mito - dysfunction or disorder again the misleading statement made by the president of the mitochondria foundation whom I spoke to for thirty minutes said he agreed to all the major Ingredients can and have caused mito - dysfunction or disorder note
  his words in the carefully worded disclaimer says Disease and they are right. So as far as we know, it could very well be only hereditary but you notice he has not said mito - dysfunction or disorder as hannah had. For as he admitted to me I was right, but let me tell you he was very scarred and complimented me as to knowing as much as I did with out a medical back ground I just told him it’s a necessity when you are fighting the clock not to have your child put in a institution. Ed I wrote this and never got an answer; ” Do you know that the toxicity climbs by 10 x when you add the aluminum to the mercury it’s called the synergy effect of the two salts they are both neuro toxins but they become a super toxin when you mix aluminum and mercury. Even miners knew that the two react violently together answer this, what the hell is it doing in Kids vaccines??” for aluminum
  and ethl-mercury by them selves cause Apoptosis AKA neuron cell death and while were
  asking these hard questions that will never get answered a Yale university study found for the first time it has been found that high testostarone causes catastrofic loss of brain cells. Why do our children have higher than normal levels? And why is it the autism centers of excellance are not looking at any of the symptoms or the reason for high heavy metals
  or high testostarone that according to a yale study is killing our children’s brain cells? that paired with all the apoptosis from vaccine ingredients and they wonder what happened to our kids it doe appear that the light is on but nobodys at home at the CDC,…

• Kristina Chew, PhD
  Oct 7, 2008 at 1:47 am

  Dr. Jill James is often quoted by parents of autistic children for her work on glutathione (the research referred to here was presented at a 2005 conference. And Dr. James is a regular DAN! presenter.

• Digger
  Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 am

  Thank you kristina, and good night…

• Storkdok
  Oct 7, 2008 at 10:46 am

  @Ed
  The point is not what do I know, I know I’m not an expert in autism and the biophysiology, I am an OB/GYN. The point is that those people/professionals with the requisite background knowledge in certain medical and statistical areas are necessary to be able to sift through all the research to make public health decisions, and they are considered the experts. Just because you and many other parents don’t like it doesn’t change the fact that they are the experts, no matter how long and loud you proclaim they are not. You sure don’t understand the entire body of research, with no credentials or background studies in medicine and biostatistics. I have a lot more credibility than you do, but I don’t claim to be an expert in this area. Your “google PhD” is worth squat.

  Your problem is “The Arrogance of Ignorance” and Prometheus wrote a nice piece on this. Those of you who proclaim longest and loudest that you understand the intricacies of autism and it’s physiology/anatomy/biochemistry/statistics and are experts are the least knowledgeable. Those of us who are far more qualified and have much more knowledge know that there is a lot more we don’t know, and we don’t proclaim we are experts.

  You throw in comments and “facts” from a very few scientists and/or DAN doctors (quacks) opinions on autism that are not substantiated by the research. There are always a few nuts in every field. What holds up is science that is reproducible and consistent. You don’t have it.

  There isn’t a conspiracy involving physicians and big pharma. You and your ilk will always accuse people of “being paid by big pharma”, it’s just so ridiculous. This isn’t a Tom Clancy novel. You’re little “sacred cow” just doesn’t meet the burden of proof for the medical community, and trumpeting ignorant opinions and pseudo facts from the Kirby’s or Olmstead’s of this pseudoscience isn’t going to make any of us slap our heads and say, “Oh, yeah, what was I thinking? There are the REAL autism experts.”

  You guys are so immersed in this belief system you can’t see the gestalt. You are biased by the nature of being a parent. I understand that, but I step back, look at all this rationally, and have figured out that arguing about glutathione or whatever is not going to help my son.

  What will help is to secure the services he needs and to keep on top of his programming. I choose to put my energies into research on how to help him TODAY and advocate for all autistics, for their future and the services they need. I choose to not have a victim mentality and play the blame game. I choose to be a mom to my son and to love him and treat him as an equal member of society, not as “damaged goods” or “less human”. Digger’s repulsive statements about his son show that he has the same mentality that lead to the holocaust.

  One real autism expert wrote an excellent, well researched book on the medical management of autism. You should read Dr. Michael Chez’s book, “Autism and It’s Medical Management”, it is the best guide out on the subject, and doesn’t contain quackery.

  So get off your high horse, you are no expert. Stop patting each other on the back for your perceived expertise and get on with life.

• Digger
  Oct 7, 2008 at 7:41 pm

  Again storkdok were not the ones declaring this at the simpsonwood meeting Dr. Brent: Page 229: “The medical legal findings in this study, causal or not, are horrendous and therefore, it is important that the suggested epidemiological, pharmacokinetic, and animal studies be performed. If an allegation was made that a child’s neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find a junk scientist who would support the claim with “a reasonable degree of certainty”. But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned.” so if I understand these “experts” right they are saying that a junk scientist is one that will present the truth and who would support the claim with “a reasonable degree of certainty” Then I guess they found scientist that
  had no integrity because after that meeting all that data that was bad news for those experts
  suddenly was changed to more acceptable data.
  But we know shady stuff was going on because Dr. weil told them this. Dr. Weil: Page 207: ” The number of dose related relationships are linear and statistically significant. You can play with this all you want. They are linear. They are statistically significant. The positive relationships are those that one might expect from the Faroe Islands studies. They are also related to those data we do have on experimental animal data and similar to the neurodevelopmental tox data on other substances, so that I think you can’t accept that this is out of the ordinary. It isn’t out of the ordinary. The Seychelles Island studies and somebody said the Faeroe Islands studies both, were chronic exposures. We are not talking necessarily about chronic exposure. We are talking about a series of acute exposures and at one point in time that exposure is much greater on one day than any of the Seychelles Islands. The increased incidence of neurobehavioral problems in children in the past few decades is probably real. I work in the school system where my effort is entirely in special education and I have to say that the number of kids getting help in special education is growing nationally and state by state at a rate we have not seen before. these are also the same “experts” that when Dr. Verstraeten went to work at GSK and the the CDC moved his work down 5 times to almost nothing, remember he had not worked for them in three and a half years
  he was working for GSK that at that time was in
  litigation against the parents of autistic families.
  So you all know what that means, conflict of interest, but it made it’s way in the prestigious
  journal of the AAP boy you talk about a hack
  journal. One that even after being confronted
  by a congressman Dr. Weldon had refused to remove his work from their journal isn’t it funny
  how a double standard exist. Remember
  Dr. Wakefield how fast he was removed for a perceived conflict. You see storkdok you can’t have it both ways, and say that this is sound science. By the way the earlier work from verstreaten was destroyed even after Dr. congressman Weldon warned Dr. gerberdine
  The Dir. of the CDC that he had heard that the
  earlier work from verstreaten was in danger of being destroyed and as history has shown it was. So we have your so called experts lieing to
  get verstreatens work in the AAP journal and destroying his earlier work then these ” experts”
  are caught saying that verstreatens new work
  cleared thimerosal when the “expert” said in a
  letter when he found out he was about to be subpoenaed to the US. that he did not find a negative or a positive he found a neutral so
  at best they had a neutral finding. So your
  “experts” seem to be crooks as well this should anger you. For I have given you the truth, and if it doe’s not anger you then I would be wondering about you and your integrity As a Doctor and
  how you perceive the American people as the enemy. And with the MSDS sheet from thimersal
  stating that pregnant women should not be exposed to their product for it can readily cross the BBB and the placental barrier also
  and cause mild to severe mental retardation
  storkdok this is your “expertise” do you allow a pregnant woman to get a Flu shot containing
  thimerosal after the maker says you should not.
  Well the CDC did, that is how the thimerosal got back in the children when at the simpsonwood
  meeting they were saying this

  “Dr. Weil: Page 24: “One, up until this last discussion we have been talking about chronic exposure. I think it’s clear to me anyway that we are talking about a problem that is probably more related to bolus acute exposures, and we also need to know that the migration problems and some of the other developmental problems in the central nervous system go on for quite a period after birth. But from all of the other studies of toxic substances, the earlier you work with the central nervous system, the more likely you are to run into a sensitive period for one of these effects, so that moving from one month or one day of birth to six months of birth changes enormously the potential for toxicity. There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we’ve got a serious problem. The earlier we go, the more serious the problem. The second point I could make is that in relationship to aluminum, being a nephrologist for a long time, the potential for aluminum and central nervous system toxicity was established by dialysis data. To think there isn’t some possible problem here is unreal.”

  Dr. verstreaten ;Another point is that in many of the studies with animals, it turned out that there is quite a different result depending on the dose of mercury. Depending on the route of exposure and depending on the age at which the animals were exposed. Now, I don’t know how much you can extrapolate that from animals to humans, but that tells me mercury at one month of age is not the same as mercury at three months, at 12 months, prenatal mercury, later mercury. There is a whole range of plausible outcomes from mercury. On top of that, I think that we cannot so easily compare the U.S. population to Faeroe or Seychelles populations. We have different mean levels of exposure. We are comparing high to high in the Seychelles, high to high in the Faeroe and low to low in the U.S., so I am not sure how easily you can transpose one finding to another one. So basically to me that leaves all the options open, and that means I can not exclude such a possible effect.”…

  From what I can get by what is being said, is that you would not ever want to go any earlier.

  that is unless you are wanting the out comes
  after all they said we have a plan in place

  What was their plan??

  plan #1 pregnant women Flu shots
  what did they know? that the MSDS says not to
  expose pregnant women.

  plan #2 children 6 - mos to 2 years Flu shots
  what did they know? that children 6 - mos to 2 years of age get absolutely no benefit from the inactivated flu vacc. except that of a placebo effect.

  These “experts” seem awful damn dangerous
  with “experts” like this who needs Terrorist?

• Storkdok
  Oct 7, 2008 at 8:37 pm

  @Digger
  You disgust me. It is YOU who are not human, not your son.

  You have no expertise, you are a puppet. Go crawl back under your rock.

• Ed
  Oct 7, 2008 at 9:25 pm

  @Storkdok

  “Your “google PhD” is worth squat.”

  You mock me. I do not claim to have the answers. What I recognize is that the so called experts don’t have any either. They offer nothing and then decry any attempt by parents to look for answers elsewhere.

  “Your problem is “The Arrogance of Ignorance”"
  It is not arrogance to see and recognize when so called expert opinions do not follow from the data offered.

  “You throw in comments and “facts” from a very few scientists and/or DAN doctors (quacks) opinions on autism that are not substantiated by the research.”

  What is it I said that you object to?

  “There isn’t a conspiracy involving physicians and big pharma. You and your ilk will always accuse people of “being paid by big pharma”, it’s just so ridiculous. This isn’t a Tom Clancy novel. You’re little “sacred cow” just doesn’t meet the burden of proof for the medical community