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Autism Vox

Engaging Floortime (2): Greenspan on How Autism Develops

by Kristina Chew, PhD on July 18th, 2006

Engaging Autism: Helping Children Relate, Communicate and Think with the DIR Floortime ApproachI will begin my review of Dr. Stanley Greenspan’s new book, Engaging Autism: Using the Floortime Approach to Help Children Relate, Communicate and Think not by reviewing the techniques of his Floortime approach, but by considering his views on “how autism develops.” Appendix B of Engaging Autism is entitled “How Autism Develops: The DIR Theory” and opens with a reference to Greenspan’s earlier work on “the development of symbol formation, language, and intelligence,” and especially to his 2004 book The first idea: how symbols, language, and intelligence evolved from our primate ancestors to modern humans, whose co-author is Stuart G. Shanker.

According to the observations we have made of a range of infants, young children, and their families (Greenspan, 1979, 1992, 2001; Greenspan and Shanker, 2004, 2006) the development of symbol formation, language, and intelligence is based on a series of critical, emotional interactions early in life. When these interactions are not mastered, these abilities do not develop. Biological factors present in autism can make it difficult for a child to participate in these interactions. We have observed that children with ASD have not fully mastered these critical early interactions (Greenspan et al., 1987; Greenspan, 1992; Greenspan and Wieder, 1998, 1999). (p. 395)

Though this is only one paragraph from Engaging Autism, these four sentences are emblematic of Greenspan’s thinking throughout the book and, indeed, behind the uses of Floortime in treating “children at risk for ASD” (p. 399). The first sentence is a general statement about the development of “symbol formation, language, and intelligence” in children—about child development—-about children in general. A certain “series [my emphasis] of critical, emotional [my emphasis] interactions early in life” are necessary for a child to “master,” and it is precisely this “mastery” of these “formative emotional interactions” that does not occur in children with ASD. Greenspan’s Floortime is an intervention designed to create “special opportunities for the necessary [my emphasis] formative emotional experiences [my emphasis].”

In other words, due to “biological factors,” an autistic child (according to Greenspan) has difficulty in acquiring these “formative” experiences, so that his development is impeded. Floortime, with its emphasis on looking at the “core psychological deficit in autism” —identified by Greenspan as an infant’s capacity to “connect emotions or intent to motor planning and sequencing and to sensations and, later to emergent symbols” (p. 397)—focuses on recreating, via those “special opportunities” (i.e., the specific techniques of Floortime), that connection between emotion and motor planning, etc., that some children do not develop “because of their unique biologies” (p. 395). Greenspan notes that these “biological factors” include a child’s genetic make-up that “may presdispose a child to autism, or create vulnerabilities to cumulative pre- and postnatal challenges such as infectious illnesses, toxic substances, and factors that can precipitate autoimmunity” (p. 396)—-Greenspan seems here to be referring to theories about the MMR vaccine, thimerasol, mercury, environmental toxins, air pollution, etc., as causes of autism.

In the next sentence in this paragraph (in a section entitled “A Multifactor, Cumulative Risk Model”), Greenspan writes:

Postnatal factors such as experiential or physical stress may also contribute to the behavioral patterns symptomatic of autism and ASD. (p. 396)

A few pages later, he writes:

When biological factors (or severe deprivation or abuse) interfere with the formation of a primary connection among the sensory system, affect, and the motor system, behavior is not strongly linked to affective qualities of sensation. Therefore, infants with this deficit evidence more aimless behavior…..(p. 399)

In addition to “biological factors,” Greenspan suggests that something in an infant’s experience may be causing “stress” on his system. The second passage quoted above provides a more specific sense of what he means by “experiential stress,” namely “severe deprivation or abuse.” It is suggested here that a child is “at risk for ASD” (p. 399) because something is lacking in those taking care of the child—the child’s parents; indeed, Greenspan suggests that the child’s caregivers may be “severely depriving” and even “abusing” a child.

Is it possible that Greenspan is suggesting that a child can be “at risk for ASD” due to improper care from the child’s parents?

If so, enfolded in Greenspan’s discussion in Appendix B of “How Autism Develops” and in his “developmental, individual-difference, relationship-based” DIR model, is more than a hint of a theory of autism that most parents have long thought outmoded and discredited, namely, the refrigerator mother theory of autism first stated by Leo Kanner and promulgated by Bruno Bettelheim.

I will continue my analysis of Engaging Autism and more of the specifics of the Floortime approach as Greenspan presents them in this book in a future post.

POSTED IN: Books, Education, Family, History, Parenting, Psychology, Treatment, Uncategorized

66 opinions for Engaging Floortime (2): Greenspan on How Autism Develops

  • Jannalou
    Jul 18, 2006 at 10:10 am

    Ah, yes. Here’s the excerpt from my paper (previously discussed and quoted on my blog re: Son-Rise) about FloorTime:

    The FloorTime treatment model has several good points, but again seems to ascribe to a view of parental responsibility in the child’s developing autism – there is constant discussion of the inability of the child to bond with parents and vice versa.

    Stanley Greenspan, the man who has developed this method, has broken development into six milestones. His philosophy is that everyone must achieve these milestones in order, as each new level builds on the last. He says that it doesn’t matter at what age you achieve the milestones, as long as you reach them in order. Basically, FloorTime is a form of non-invasive play therapy.

    The milestones recognised by Greenspan are, in order:
    Self-Regulation and Interest in the WorldIntimacyTwo-Way CommunicationComplex CommunicationEmotional IdeasEmotional Thinking
    The four goals of FloorTime:
    Encouraging Attention and IntimacyTwo-way CommunicationEncouraging the Expression and Use of Feelings and IdeasLogical Thought
    It is my opinion that the FloorTime method is not an appropriate treatment for autism. I think that it may be an acceptable addition to a child’s program, but the methods employed and the underlying principles cannot in any way be expected to achieve real, lasting results for the majority of autistic individuals.

    As always, take with a grain of salt…

  • Kristina Chew, PhD
    Jul 18, 2006 at 11:57 am

    Thanks for the insights, Jannalou.

    Floortime has gotten a lot more attention here in the US, I think, in the wake of the Time magazine (May) article on autism.

  • Autism Vox » Engaging Floortime (3): Floortime for Parents
    Jul 19, 2006 at 12:35 pm

    […] However, Dr. Stanley Greenspan appears to suggest precisely this in his new book Engaging Autism: Using the Floortime Approach to Help Children Relate, Communicate and Think. As I wrote yesterday in my second post reviewing Greenspan’s new book, Engaging Floortime (2): Greenspan on How Autism Develops: In addition to “biological factors,” Greenspan suggests that something in an infant’s experience may be causing “stress” on his system. [A] passage [on p. 399] provides a more specific sense of what he means by “experiential stress,” namely “severe deprivation or abuse.” It is suggested here that a child is “at risk for ASD” (p. 399) because something is lacking in those taking care of the child—the child’s parents; indeed, Greenspan suggests that the child’s caregivers may be “severely depriving” and even “abusing” a child. […]

  • Autism Vox
    Jul 19, 2006 at 12:39 pm

    […] However, Dr. Stanley Greenspan appears to suggest precisely this in his new book Engaging Autism: Using the Floortime Approach to Help Children Relate, Communicate and Think. As I wrote yesterday in my second post reviewing Greenspan’s new book, Engaging Floortime (2): Greenspan on How Autism Develops: In addition to “biological factors,” Greenspan suggests that something in an infant’s experience may be causing “stress” on his system. [A] passage [on p. 399] provides a more specific sense of what he means by “experiential stress,” namely “severe deprivation or abuse.” It is suggested here that a child is “at risk for ASD” (p. 399) because something is lacking in those taking care of the child—the child’s parents; indeed, Greenspan suggests that the child’s caregivers may be “severely depriving” and even “abusing” a child. […]

  • larry
    Oct 25, 2007 at 2:52 pm

    Again; if a procedure works, we shouldn’t conceren ourselves over the politics. Floortime has a track record. Children have essentially been cured of autism with it. I belong to two internet autism groups. I own one of these, and I can tell you; mothers who hate Bettelheim have tried floortime and swear by it. If they had known ahead of time that it was little different from the approach used by Bettelheim’s Orthogenic School, I sincerely believe their poor little autistic kids would have ended up in an institution after being brutalized by intervention or behavior modification “therapy.”

  • Kristina Chew, PhD
    Oct 25, 2007 at 4:18 pm

    I think this it is more the overarching philosophy informing Greenspan’s views that I am interested in: Much of the Floortime therapy recalls what our best therapists and teachers (ABA, speech, OT, etc.) have naturally done in playing, interacting, etc. with my son.

  • larry
    Oct 25, 2007 at 7:40 pm

    Remember, though, this particular overreaching philosophy has recently been validated by the human genome project you yourself referred us to:

    http://www.mcgill.ca/headway/fall2006/indepth1/

    Again, this is not to suggest all autism is caused by neglect. This is not even suggesting that most autism is caused by neglect. Like I mentioned before; any trauma in early infancy, even being born precocious, can cause autism; or–as they say nowadays–trigger an epigene to turn a gene on or off.

  • larry
    Oct 25, 2007 at 8:14 pm

    Oops. You said “overarching” philosophy. I never heard that word before. It’s a good one though.

    Anyway, ABA admits it has no overarching philosophy. The therapist makes it clear that autism is a neurological disorder like aphasia. Aphasia is caused by neurological damage, and it prevents the afflicted from talking. The best way to overcome aphasia is to train patients to use other parts of their brain. Autism, too, is caused by neurological damage that affects the afflicted’s ability to talk. Ergo…

    You must see how naive that sounds. You know it’s wrong intuitively. Your child does not have brain damage. If you treat him the same way you treat a child with aphasia, you can severely damage him emotionally. His hesitancy in speaking is a psychological defense, not a mechanical defect for crying out loud.

  • Kristina Chew, PhD
    Oct 25, 2007 at 8:38 pm

    I’m not so sure that you know what my child has……at least as regards his brain! Your comments about my son, while I assume well-meant, are incorrect.

    I’ll rephrase Terry Eagleton, who said that “no ideology” (no philosophy) is still an ideology (and still a philosophy), and an effective teaching method. Yes, the techniques of Floortime are, again, such as a therapist or teacher does, perhaps by nature; as far as teaching day to day skills, what Greenspan describes may aid a younger child in playing, but not so much (or necessarily) an older child in a school setting.

  • larry
    Oct 25, 2007 at 9:01 pm

    Are you angry because I have provided inferential evidence from respected geneticists, as well as psychoanalyts, that autistic children don’t have brain damage?

  • larry
    Oct 25, 2007 at 9:01 pm

    OK. I re-read my post.

    “You must see how naive that sounds. You know it’s wrong intuitively. Your child does not have brain damage.”

    That sounds really bad. I apologize.

  • Kristina Chew, PhD
    Oct 25, 2007 at 9:26 pm

    Interested, never angry! It’s always good to consider every angles; I am simply wary of ad puerum mentions regarding my son. Thank you, and thanks for your patience with me.

  • Kassiane
    Oct 25, 2007 at 9:48 pm

    I am autistic.

    I have seen my brain scans. They’re pretty interesting. SPECT, MRI, fMRI, PET, and CT.

    They say, pretty clearly, that I am wired like other autistic people, rather than like people with, say, selective mutism or social anxiety.

    Incidentally, the orthogenic school and floortime are pretty dissimilar, unless I missed something somewhere in Greenspan’s stuff about obsessions with poop and rejection during breastfeeding…

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 12:39 am

    The fact that your brain is typical of other autistics simply indicates that anxiety in infancy causes brain changes:

    http://www.news.wisc.edu/11882

    http://www.thestar.com/article/198170

    http://www.mcgill.ca/headway/fall2006/indepth1/

    As for poop and breast issues, there is a broad consensus on this among psychoanalysts. Greenspan is a psychoanalyst. The big difference between Greenspan and Bettelheim is that Greenspan is careful not to get mommies pissed off at him. However, as Kristine noted, the overarching theories are identical.

    Incidentally, according to the neurologists themselves, there are no neurological tests for autism. I wouldn’t want to waste my money or time on such things, although as soon as the neurologists find such a test, I’ll be the first in line. I want to find out if I really am autistic. Maybe I’ve got creeping lugunga or something.

  • so cal
    Oct 26, 2007 at 12:42 am

    Hi, Larry:

    If I may ask: Were you dx’d by a psychoanalyst?

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 12:47 am

    Somebody help me! I’m going crazy. I can’t find the meaning of “ad puerum.”

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 12:55 am

    I have never been to a psychoanalyst in my life. I am broke. I’m a self-employed gardener with three kids. My wife has insurance through her job. I got three free visits with a psychologist. He told me what I was. When I was a kid, the only cure they knew was detention.

    It worked. I loved it. My I.Q. went from 90 to 132 between age 11 and 14.

    I’m interested in psychoanalysis for one reason. I hero worship Freud. I finally decided I had better be able to understand his theories. I read any book by him I could get my hands on. It took years before it finally started to sink in.

  • so cal
    Oct 26, 2007 at 1:05 am

    Is it OK for me to ask what year you were dx’d and what the exact dx was? I had understood from our previous dialog that it was ‘autism’.

    Again, please read that Robertson Davies trilogy I wrote you about.

    I think you can substitute ‘puerile’ for ‘ad puerum’ but my Latin skills are long gone, so K. will have to say for sure.

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 1:20 am

    Asperger’s Syndrome in 2001.

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 1:28 am

    To Kassiane:

    Do you have the large head typical of autistics? I have had that peculiarity ever since I was a little kid. I’m the only one in my family with that. I also have a long torso and short legs–like a neanderthal. One of the studies I posted above provides a perfect explanation for it: “Epigenetics.”

    Look at this: http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm

  • so cal
    Oct 26, 2007 at 1:30 am

    Thanks. For some reason, I had thought you were dx’d as a child. I later found out I actually was, btw. Do you feel like your mother fits the way Bettelheim saw some mothers of autistic children? I won’t come down on you for your answer. Actually, I’d say my mother would, in some ways, fit with the old theories. [However, I can remember how my mind worked before my mother had any kind of real influence on it as a child].

  • Kassiane
    Oct 26, 2007 at 1:30 am

    Psychoanalysts are people who make a lot of money having people contemplate their own navels and make mountains out of minuscule conflicts with family members.

    In case you didn’t catch it the first time, my brain works DIFFERENTLY from that of someone with social anxiety. This includes first degree relatives (I have one with SA) who had the SAME UPBRINGING as I did.

    And Kristina and other commenters here can tell you, I may be autistic, but anxiety over relationships is the least of my worries. I also don’t quite see how anxiety can cause changes in bloodflow to the cerebellum, or functional changes where ipsilateral hemispheres have control rather than contralateral…that’s quite specifically inborn and physical, not something Freud has an answer to.

  • so cal
    Oct 26, 2007 at 1:35 am

    I know many long-limbed autistics. Some are even highly-skilled gymnasts built like prima ballerinas
    : ) I think a lot us here know that neandrathal (sp), um, theory … whatever.

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 1:48 am

    I was born in 1944. By the time I was diagnosable I suppose I could have been diagnosed with Kanner’s autism. But my mother divorced my father when I was three, and she didn’t have any money for such things.

    My mother fits Kanner’s prototype perfectly. To this day she protests to anyone and everyone how much she loved me. But I can remember things. The lady doth protest too much methinks. Nowadays she tries to lay guilt trips on me. Everything was my fault. I humor her.

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 1:51 am

    Hi Kassianne:

    You wrote: “Psychoanalysts are people who make a lot of money having people contemplate their own navels and make mountains out of minuscule conflicts with family members.”

    OK. From now on I will ignore psychoanalysis.

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 2:01 am

    To So Cal.

    I like the neanderthal theory. It appeals to me. I majored in Anthropology. And now that they have epigentics, there is actually a mechanism that makes sense for it. Nearly 99 percent of all human genes are exactly duplicated in chimpanzees. It’s therefore safe to assume that neanderthals were 100 percent human, genetically speaking. The only difference is the epigenes. Anxiety causes epigenes to kick in and change brain function and physiology. The results can even be perpetuated in offspring. That’s what they have found in rats. The evidence is undeniable.

    The convenience of this discovery is mind-boggling. It means that Freud, Tony Attwood, the neanderthal nuts and the reductionist neurologists are all right!

  • so cal
    Oct 26, 2007 at 2:36 am

    Well, maybe. Yes, I know about epigenetics. I’ve followed it since it first began being discussed in the journals. Not to say I actually understand in on an academic level though. Some things about the Neaderathal hypothesis is interesting, but I find my Mermaid Hypothesis even more compelling ; ]

  • Kassiane
    Oct 26, 2007 at 2:46 am

    “Do you have the large head typical of autistics? I have had that peculiarity ever since I was a little kid. I’m the only one in my family with that.”

    Actually I fit clinical criteria for microcephaly. My head is about 20″ or so (below the 5th percentile). This means I get my winter hats in the toddler section (and then have to pull pom poms off. THe plus side is they cost about $2.50). I am the only microcephalic person in my family, and I know exactly why.

    ” I also have a long torso and short legs–like a neanderthal. One of the studies I posted above provides a perfect explanation for it: “Epigenetics.””

    I have longish arms, very long legs, and a short torso. Makes for lovely lines on balance beam. Everyone in my family has proportionately long limbs and is at least slightly hypermobile, with me being exceptionally hypermobile. Again, I know exactly why.

  • so cal
    Oct 26, 2007 at 2:49 am

    “To this day she protests to anyone and everyone how much she loved me.”

    Hmm, that’s more histrionic than Kanner’s mom-like, though. At least to me. I’d think the Kanner prototype mom (as described by him and by B.) wouldn’t care who thought what. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of my own mother protesting about her love for me — actually quite the opposite. And I humor her, too! Or at least I used to when I saw her.

  • Cliff
    Oct 26, 2007 at 7:05 am

    It seems, Larry, that you have a grudge or two in this issue, hearing about your opinions of your mother.

    My body type is fairly normal, height slightly below average for my age, torso and legs appropriate therein.

    I had a potential “trauma” in a C-Section, but I’ve a set of family members who had those traits. And, as Kassiane says, Freud hasn’t explained how the “anxiety” would create the specific neurological wiring that is present in an autistic.

    Oh, and I’ve had the IQ jump, a few times. 60, 100, 140-esque, then another higher score (unclear for the Wechsler). And I’d most certainly hold that was not a product of anything in terms of intelligence, but of the ability to communicate intelligence. On that matter, IQ scores really don’t measure intelligence, but the ability to communicate a specific intelligence, a way in many cases for a scientific distinction based on discrimination.

    Cliff

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 10:46 am

    First of all, everybody is right about Kanner’s refrigerator mom. She is supposed to be aloof and reserved. I wrote that wrong. My mother’s personality was oh-so superior when I was a child. She was Nurse Ratched. Now she feels bad.

    Secondly, brains are not “wired” for anything. If only things were so simple. Neurologists know this. I think they’re trying to dumb down their science for the sake of the hoi-polloi, as doctors are prone to do.

    http://www.thestar.com/article/198170

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 10:52 am

    As for grudges, Cliff; you are oh so right. I detest these bullies who shout down anyone who thinks about things. I do not know the percentage of Nurse Ratcheds among mothers of autistic children, but I have met them. Check this out.

    http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

    “Affective deprivation” is the term used to describe the aetiology. I love it. It’s as if they are paying back their children for what has happened to them.

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 11:07 am

    To Kassiane;
    You keep on saying you know why. I too said that about my big head. In fact, there are two reasons, to my way of thinking, why autistics typically have large heads. The first is widely accepted I think. Infants who suffer excess anxiety suffer brain damage. If this happens at a critical stage of infancy, the brain tries to compensate by producing neurons (in this respect I have to admit my reply to Kristina was “ad puerem.” You’re not perfect either Kristina…).

    The other reason for the large brains is that the overgrowth of neurons is triggered by epigenes. In other words, we regress to neanderthals. Why in hell not? It’s just an hypothesis.

    So. I spilled my guts and told everybody why. Now it’s your turn.

  • Kristina Chew, PhD
    Oct 26, 2007 at 12:24 pm

    Puer is 2nd declension masculine, so it is indeed ad puerUm. (just being a Latin teacher for a moment, and very much in the “imperfective aspect”)

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 1:07 pm

    OK

  • Kassiane
    Oct 26, 2007 at 3:14 pm

    I have a small head because I have a mecp2 mutation. This is generally sporadic rather than inherited, in my case it was at the 2nd cell division (aka is a mosaic mutation, 1/4 my cells), and so I am the only one in my family who has it.

    Re: hypermobility, Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome runs in my family. That’s also where we get our builds.

    And Freud nor Bettleheim have no explanation for either of those-especially not mecp2, which is WAY prebirth, usually preconception but not always, and causes an ASD that almost always affects girls.

  • so cal
    Oct 26, 2007 at 4:21 pm

    Nor do Freud nor Bettelheim have any explanation for many of those superior skills (as documented in the literature) associated with the autistic mind/brain, do they?

  • larry
    Oct 26, 2007 at 10:21 pm

    Well, how does the mecp2 cause autism?

    Incidentally; back to the neanderthal issue; I have an occipital condyle. So does my oldest daughter. Nobody else in my family has this. For those who don’t know what it is, it’s a bony knob at the back of the skull–an atavism to primitive hominid ancestors whose skulls were not balanced well on top of their spines. Because of this lack of balance, large muscles were needed to hold the head erect. These attached to an occipital crest. The crest eventually deteriorated to a superfluous knob.

    My father had a single hair on his chest when he grew up. In the Army a bunch of louts jumped him and pulled that hair out. It never grew back. On my mother’s side we have native American ancestors, and they had very little body hair. My chest, however, is totally covered with hair. You should see me. I’m a mess. I’m a damned gorilla. I hate autism.

  • Kassiane
    Oct 27, 2007 at 12:19 am

    “Well, how does the mecp2 cause autism?”

    I assume you’re familiar with google? A simple search either there or at geneclinics.org, or emedicine.com for that matter, will tell you. I told the gene and frankly that is more than I owed anyone.

    Being hairy and being autistic aren’t, as far as I’m aware, connected…

  • larry
    Oct 27, 2007 at 1:37 am

    Hi So Cal:
    You wrote:
    “Nor do Freud nor Bettelheim have any explanation for many of those superior skills (as documented in the literature) associated with the autistic mind/brain, do they?”

    Bettelheim sure as hell did. Geniuses are born with their safe modes turned off. They take everything in and it overwhelms them. Freud discovered that dreams of tidal waves and floods are regressions to the birth trauma.

    If a child is born precocious, it’s likely to make him a bit regressive I think. He’ll want to go back inside!

    That explains why all autistics aren’t geniuses, but nearly all geniuses are autistic.

  • larry
    Oct 27, 2007 at 1:40 am

    Hi kassiane:
    You wrote:
    “I assume you’re familiar with google? A simple search either there or at geneclinics.org, or emedicine.com for that matter, will tell you. I told the gene and frankly that is more than I owed anyone. ”

    First of all, I can’t find anything that explains how the gene causes autism. All I can find is that there is a correlation. That alone isn’t evidence of a cause-and-effect relationship.

    Secondly, you owe it to me because I answer ALL your questions!

  • larry
    Oct 27, 2007 at 1:45 am

    To So Cal:

    I just ordered the Deptford Trilogy. It looks really interesting!

  • Kassiane
    Oct 27, 2007 at 2:33 am

    I don’t ASK you questions, and I don’t owe anyone on the internet ANYTHING.

    If you’re having issues with google that certainly isn’t my fault. A mecp2 mutation in a girl will cause the ASD known as Rett syndrome, or a variant thereof. Ask geneclinics. In boys it will usually cause a severe encephalopathy or be lethal because boys only have one X chromosome, barring unusual circumstances.

    It ain’t a correllation. It’s a CAUSE.

  • Regan
    Oct 27, 2007 at 3:46 am

    For Larry.

    A couple of links on mecp2 that you might find interesting. I especially appreciated the first for the descriptions of how the mechanisms are identified and for the detail on epigenetics, but the 2nd shows how suppression and activation of a gparticular gene might affect the translation process.

    Solving the Mechanism of Rett Syndrome
    How the First Identified Epigenetic Disease Turns on the Genes That Produce its Symptoms
    http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/LSD-Rett-syndrome.html

    http://www.rettsyndrome.org/content.asp?contentid=1107

  • larry
    Oct 27, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    Hi Kassiane:
    You wrote: “It ain’t a correllation. It’s a CAUSE.”

    Thank you. We can assume that the manifest condition itself was stressful to you in infancy, not the gene in particular. And stress in early infancy is what causes the autism. That’s my contention around here. Environmental determinants.

  • larry
    Oct 27, 2007 at 12:19 pm

    To regan: Thank you for the links. Since they have decided Rett Syndrome is on the AS spectrum it’s raising some more questions. Not all autism is caused by this particular gene.

  • Kristina Chew, PhD
    Oct 27, 2007 at 2:31 pm

    It would be well to note that there is no single explanation of autism—-regarding MeCP-2 and Rett’s, here is a post in a genetic test.

  • Kassiane
    Oct 27, 2007 at 4:31 pm

    Stress in infancy is your happy little myth, Larry. Please stop forcing your bad childhood on everyone else–it’s rather insulting to the very good autism parents who post here.

  • larry
    Oct 27, 2007 at 8:54 pm

    Hi Kassiane:
    You wrote:

    “Stress in infancy is your happy little myth, Larry. Please stop forcing your bad childhood on everyone else–it’s rather insulting to the very good autism parents who post here.”

    It’s also the happy little myth of Dr. Stanley Greenspan who happens to be the subject of this thread.

    Incidentally; are you being deliberately obtuse? How many times do I have to say it. I’m not asking you IF the Rett Syndrome gene causes autism. I’m asking you HOW. None of the stuff I read about Rett Syndrome offers that explanation.

    And these are neurologists for crying out loud! They aren’t stupid. The know HOW the gene causes microcephaly and retardation and brain damage. But they don’t know how it causes autism. The only reason I can think of for the silence on this issue is that they are scared. The only viable explanation for the aetiology of autism in this case of Rett Syndrome is that the autism is preceded by the misery of the illness. In other words, the autism is caused by TRAUMA. Thats something enraged mommies don’t want to hear, and modern neurologists don’t want to end up like Leo Kanner who managed to get kicked off the DSM in favor of the innocuous Hans Asperger. And of course they don’t want to end up like poor old Bettelheim either, who has become the object of lies and slander to this day.

  • Kassiane
    Oct 27, 2007 at 10:40 pm

    a) Not all girls with rett are retarded. In fact, there is debate if MOST are. The big issue seems to be praxis (I have better praxis than most with a mecp2 mutation and test very well, as an N=1 case study. There are N>1 studies out there of “mild rett”)

    b) The mecp2 gene controls methylation. When the protein it controls gets seriously disregulated, as happens with mutations in the mecp2 GENE, the whole nervous system starts to have Issues-that is, autism, loss of hand skills, loss of many gross motor skills, seizures, PNS stuff…as far as I understand the mecp2 gene turns on and off OTHER genes and when it fails to do that things get out of control. The literature isn’t completely clear either, but that’s what they have from mouse models. In vivo-that is, brain imaging-they’ve got smaller more compact brains with less efficient pruning and therefore crammed neurons. They can’t exactly go cutting up living people to test hypotheses.

    I don’t buy the stress in infancy thing. I never will. Too many NT kids with crappy parents and too many autistic kids with fabulous parents…you see a lot working with kids.

  • larry
    Oct 28, 2007 at 2:03 pm

    Hi Kristina:

    You wrote:

    “It would be well to note that there is no single explanation of autism—-regarding MeCP-2 and Rett’s, here is a post in a genetic test.”

    That “no single explanation” post presupposes that autism can be eventually understood on a “molecular level.” That’s a good definition of “begging the question.”

    I can’t figure out why autism experts spend so much time beating their heads against a wall looking for genetic causes while totally ignoring the vast evidence that shows stress in early infancy is probably the ultimate underlying cause of ALL autism

  • Andy
    Mar 31, 2008 at 12:49 pm

    I think this review is way off-base. I think what Greensapn is getting at is that children with autism do not pick up delopmental milestones as naturally as children without autism. Because of this, caregivers need to stress the delopment of these milestones much, much more than they normally would. If you have a child with autism and use the floortime approach, you can easily see the validity of this point. I don’t think Greenspan is blaming anybody or anything specifically. It is best not to base what you think and do about your child’s autism on your personal issues.

  • Kristina Chew, PhD
    Mar 31, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    @Andy,

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. A careful reading of many of Greenspan’s works reveals similar views about how parents “contribute” to a child “becoming” autistic (he also notes such views in The Special Needs Child).

  • Bonnie Sayers
    May 11, 2008 at 8:11 pm

    Larry commented that children have been cured of autism by using Floortime. This is news to me. I thought it would be helpful to draw my son into more purposeful play instead of shredding papers or stomping feet or slapping walls with palms of hands, etc. Although some of it is sensory based and I ordered two DVDs today to help with that and taking the sensory conference now as well as the Stanley Greenspan online course.

  • Bonnie Sayers
    May 11, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    I have Engaging Autism and yet to read it and have read some of Special Needs child, but not that much to get this sense of it yet. Interesting take and now I am going to have to find time to read many books and less computer time.

  • larry
    May 11, 2008 at 11:47 pm

    “Larry commented that children have been cured of autism by using Floortime. This is news to me.”

    ——-

    Autism is listed in the DSM of mental disorders. According to Freud, all personality is a mental disorder. It’s the price we pay for living in civilization. We are all on the autistic spectrum. The cutoff, therefore, between mental illness and mental health is necessarily arbitrary. My favorite cutoff is Freud’s who defined mental health as the psychological ability to work and love. Accordingly, lots of autistics have been *cured* of autism.

  • stopautismquackery
    May 12, 2008 at 12:34 am

    Freud … who betrayed his patients by ultimately deciding they were lying about being abused and instead he invented an entire ‘theory’ around it, as a way to subvert the reality. It was actually malpractice on his part. But, I’m not the the mood much to go round-n-round with you again larry, so never mind.

  • larry
    May 12, 2008 at 1:37 am

    You are not in the mood because I will cream you for such childish ignorance, whoever you are. People like you are the ones who caused the idiot witchhunts in the eighties and nineties, like the McMartin Preschool case and the Ramona case. Everybody went around like you scorning Freud for abandoning his seduction theory of neurosis. They all believed neurosis is caused by the sexual abuse of children. Therefore, if your child was neurotic or autistic, it must be because the father raped them!

    Hundreds of perfectly innocent people were jailed for incest all because of ideologues like you–again, whoever you are.

  • stopautismquackery
    May 12, 2008 at 2:46 am

    People like me? Do you know the numbers of children who are abused? Are you denying that Freud’s patient was abused, as she revealed during analysis? I said nothing about McMartin and I don’t know of Ramona. There’s a great book about psychoanalysis and sexual abuse that I just finished reading, that supplies historical stats for the numbers of children sexually abused and some great insights regarding psychoanalytic theory in helping those who have been sexually abused. I’m sorry but Freud was remiss. I’ll post the link for the book tomorrow. BTW, I’ve talked to you for well over a year on this board and another. It’s not at all childish to call Freud out on this. He made a mistake — plain and simple.
    He was a man; he was flawed. Please think twice before you call someone an ideologue. And I’m not in the mood to debate this with you because I might have been one of those kids Freud would have dismissed. Goodnight larry.

  • grenouille
    May 12, 2008 at 10:20 am

    Bonnie:

    A very popular book called The Boy Who Loved Windows by Patricia Stacey definitely portrays Floortime as a cure. The reader is essential told that Walker, the author’s child, has been ridded of autism through his mother’s backbreaking work. Actually, it’s more correct to say that she supposedly prevents autism from ever showing up. It’s an interesting book and well-written, but pretty outdated. For instance, it mentions that secretin has shown promise.

    Anyway, I have always found it odd that there haven’t been more updates on the child in the book. I did see that Patricia Stacey wrote an article recently in O Magazine where she described herself as being mother to a child with special needs. So maybe talk of a cure was premature.

  • larry
    May 12, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    “He was a man; he was flawed. Please think twice before you call someone an ideologue. And I’m not in the mood to debate this with you because I might have been one of those kids Freud would have dismissed. Goodnight larry.”

    ———

    Oh Freud was flawed sure enough. But not in this regard. Books like you just read are a dime a dozen, written by people who never read Freud or who deliberately lie. The book that started the eighties witch hunt was written by Jeffrey Masson, a psychoanalyst who had a grudge against Anna Freud. (read the customer reviews for this stinker:
    http://www.amazon.com/Assault-Truth-Freuds-Suppression-Seduction/dp/0345452798/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210608884&sr=1-1).
    I think the case of the memory of an actual child abuse you mention was reported by Masson in this book as something Freud himself wrote in a letter to William Fleiss. It involved a girl who remembered a childhood incident where her brother entered her bedroom at night and kissed her feet. Regardless of whether that’s the case you have in mind, it’s a good example of how people lie about or are ignorant of Freud’s theories.

    Freud believed that ALL neurosis is due to trauma. He started out assuming that children are innocent of sexuality and are thus incapable of sexual fantasies. When he discovered memories of sexual abuse in ALL his patients, he assumed that their neuroses was due to traumatic sexual abuse–rape. The recovered memory of the tender foot kissing incident, however, was hardly traumatic. There is no way Freud would have ever considered this pertinent to his seduction theory. If anything, it would have contributed to his decision to scrap the theory and finally accept the fact that infants do, in fact, have strong sexual fantasies, and that PROHIBITION of sexuality–masturbation, public nudity, goosing, etc– from people they depend on for love is the source of the trauma which caused the neurosis.

    Anyway, Freud never, EVER wrote anywhere in his twenty-three volumes of collected work that children never suffer from traumatic sexual abuse, or that such a trauma would not cause neurosis. You can check this yourself. If your book is to be credible, there has to be footnotes citing Freud’s work for the outrageous claims being made against him. Freud’s collected works can be found in any university library or for sale in paperback.
    http://www.amazon.com/Standard-Complete-Psychological-Works-Sigmund/dp/0393011283/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210609508&sr=1-8
    You can follow the footnote references to Freud, and you will discover that the supposed facts reported in your book are either lies or distortions, or deliberately taken out of context with the intent to deceive. I have gone through this routine myself with many anti-Freud books, and so far I am batting a thousand. They are all liars. Susan Forward’s book, “Betrayal of Innocence” was a good example. She was oh-so-condescending in reporting that Freud believed woman are inherently masochistic. What she didn’t bother to mention was that Freud believed all living substance is inherently masochistic! Then there was some fool who reported that Freud believed primitive tribesmen were something less than human. When you look up the actual reference in Freud’s “Totem and Taboo,” however, you will find that Freud was actually saying just exactly the opposite. In order to emphasize his point, however, he had simply exaggerated the primitive native’s miserable existence.

    So, if you want to argue, that’s fine. You obviously know me well enough. I love to argue. I think it’s fun. However, I refuse to indulge you any further in this until you take the trouble to check your sources like I suggested.

  • Bonnie Sayers
    May 12, 2008 at 12:49 pm

    Thanks for the info about the book. Turns out I have that one also. I have purchsed way too many books and never get around to reading many. I stopped reading stories on autism that turned out to be about personal agendas and cures and focues on therapy type books. Looks like I am going to get that book out as well.

    I will have to do a series on floor time after I finish the online conference and read some books. I am focusing more now on sensory processing disorder and ways to help my sensory seeking kid who is smacking the walls all over the house and knocking things down and very tactile as well.

  • stopautismquackery
    May 12, 2008 at 1:51 pm

    It’s nothing to do with Masson nor Forward, larry and everything to do with actual psychoanalysis helping those who were actually sexually abused in their youth — which is what Freud should have focused on when given the opportunity. Period.
    Here’s the the link for the book:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=Mxn-Xro7m1MC&printsec=frontcover&sig=m9KBj6InHPRDPX0G8eat4K0L0NA

  • Regan
    May 12, 2008 at 2:22 pm

    Well there’s no shortage of ideas of what causes autism or cures autism.

    Does Dr. Greenspan have other/newer controlled outcome data than the case review paper of the 90’s? Just curious.

    We tried some floortime, but Eleanor lacked some prerequisites even for that. I tend to think of the stages as a graduated curriculum of social interaction and executive functioning.

    He read rather sternly, but I think to blame parents would be off the mark; to say that we don’t necessarily know the most appropriate means for interacting with a child with atypical reciprocation skills doesn’t seem out of bounds.

  • Stigma and Pride
    May 13, 2008 at 12:05 pm

    […] Nonetheless, there’s been a side-discussion going on about autism, trauma, and neurosis in an older post I did on Floortime therapy, in which autism is referred to as psychological and even psychogenic. If there’s one theory […]

  • Ettina
    Oct 9, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    “indeed, Greenspan suggests that the child’s caregivers may be “severely depriving” and even “abusing” a child.”

    I think you misunderstood. Children with severe reactive attachment disorder (particularly instutionalized kids) often meet criteria for autism, but unlike truly autistic kids the features disappear when they enter a more suitable environment. I think what Greenspan is saying is that due to a biological abnormality, autistic kids have the same attachment problems in a good home as NT kids have when severely deprived/abused.

    “The only viable explanation for the aetiology of autism in this case of Rett Syndrome is that the autism is preceded by the misery of the illness. In other words, the autism is caused by TRAUMA.”

    You sure are prejudiced. Being disabled is not that traumatic for a baby, unless they’re actually in pain (there is no evidence that Rett Syndrome is painful).
    I have to say, if you wanted to emulate Freud, you certainly have succeeded. You twist reality to fit your theories in a classically Freudian manner, and generate untestable theories as a result.

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