1500
1500.
That’s journalist Arthur Allen’s estimate of how many people were at Wednesday’s Green Our Vaccines rally; a bit smaller of a number than the “close to 10,000” elsewhere noted.
Writing in today’s Washington Independent, Allen—-who’s won a bit more than the ire of the anti/pro-safe - vaccine advocates/crowd with his book, Vaccine: The Controversial Story of Medicine’s Greatest Lifesaver—-reports about what he saw and heard at the rally:
A mother who noted that, without the internet, she would “‘probably not’” have linked her son’s “regressive autism” to the hypothesis that vaccines can be linked to autism.
An almost-meeting with Wendy Fournier of the National Autism Association which led to Allen briefly (by his own admission) losing it and a rally monitor immediately calling for the cops. (Are only people who agree with the premises of the rally organizers allowed to be at the rally?) (Funny but another journalist, and the father of an autistic child, got himself expelled from a recent autism conference in Chicago after he asked a certain question.)
A cordial conversation with Age of Autism editor Dan Olmsted.
The “green-clad” crowd going “wild” when Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey appeared and were proclaimed “Access Hollywood’s green couple of the week”; Carrey seems to have done most of the talking with phrases like “‘How dumb does the CDC think we are?’”. (In light of this movie starring Carrey, one can only hear a double-entendre in that phrase.)
What was said about McCarthy’s pediatrician, Dr. Jay Gordon, who is a “celebrated, or notorious, I guess, Santa Monica doctor because of his outspoken vaccine skepticism”—Dr. Gordon is now raising alarm about aluminum in vaccines. (So the next rallying cry will be “de-foil our vaccines?)
Among much else, Allen has written about why there’s no dispelling the myths that vaccines cause autism and many will charge that his reporting about the rally is “biased” and that he has grossly undercounted how many people were there. But anyone who’s followed the exchanges about vaccines and autism (such as this and this) knows that it is a “debate” of extremes and opposing opinions, and opposing views of science, evidence, and authority. And one strongly suspects that, until people stop associating autism with vaccines, the great divide in beliefs—1500; 10,000—will continue.
33 opinions for 1500
Wade Rankin
Jun 6, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Although escorting Mr. Allen was not necessarily proper, his telling Ms. Fourner she was “full of shit” hardly qualifies as the behavior of a journalist. When one reads his entire account of his rally experience, it is clear that he went there without any thought of actually listening or observing without becoming the story himself.
As for the “journalist” who was expelled from a session at Autism One, the information I was given was that his mistake was not asking a question, but was that he openly violated the rules (applicable even to the media) of videotaping the session without permission. I was not at this year’s A-1, but in the years I have been there, I have never seen any repercussions for asking any questions — regardless of the subject, the viewpoint of the questioner, or even the tone in which the questions are asked. It is no secret that the organizers of Autism One are members of the biomed community, but the conference is a free and open exchange of ideas, which has included presentations by autistic adults who are not looking for a cure. But all who come to the conference are expected to abide by certain ground rules.
Those who call themselves journalists are certainly allowed to have strong opinions. I for one have always considered the relatively recent notion of a “neutral” press to be somewhat overrated. But the best journalists — the ones who deserve the title — display a level of decorum and never seek to become the story.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jun 6, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Thanks, Wade; always good to hear from you—–every story has many sides.
AutismNewsBeat
Jun 6, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Mr. Rankin, there was no indication whatsoever that videotaping wasn’t allowed at A-1. In fact, I had spent the entire morning openly videotaping Dr. Poling’s 7 am lecture, Stan Kurtz at 8 am, and then the Autism and the Media panel from 9-11. I have no more than 20 seconds of video from Dr. Poling’s 12:30 Q&A, and my camera wasn’t turned on when I asked my sole question.
I was ejected for asking a question. I am aware of no other explanation. I was properly registered, and received a confirming email from a conference organizer. But you already knew that.
I understand that the facts aren’t lining up as you’d like them to, but does that give you license to make things up? I’m seeing a pattern here. The evidence for your “vaccines cause autism” canard is just as thin. That’s why you’re losing.
María Luján
Jun 6, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Mr AutismNewsBeat
I hope you have no problem to tell what the question was.
Thank you
AutismNewsBeat
Jun 6, 2008 at 9:50 pm
1500 is a fair estimate for the number who showed up at the Capital. I would estimate the number who lined up for the march at 2,000 or slightly higher. The line up was approximately 500 feet long, which I base on a Google aerial photo of the staging area, and a handy little online pedometer tool:
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/
The people were packed in pretty tightly at the front, where the line was about 18 feet wide, but the crowd thinned out the farther back you went, and the width declined, too.
The GOV estimate of 10,000 is ludicrous, much like the rest of their claims.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jun 6, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Action for Autism estimates no more than 2000.
H6
Jun 6, 2008 at 10:05 pm
In the new information age we live in, it’s kind of humorous to watch people who think of themselves as journalists huff and puff as they try to establish their authority and get control of the autism narrative. People who in the past would just bow their heads in homage and gratitude for being told what the truth is now turn the tables on the so-called journalistic experts and go looking for second and third opinions. And they turn the journalists into the story itself in a kind of postmodern mirror game.
In the past when someone was the victim of belittling or sarcasm from the mainstream media, there was no fighting back. If this vaccine debate had taken place three decades ago, the mainstream media would have probably made the final call on its legitimacy. One could only write a (usually unpublished) letter to the editor.
It’s interesting that nobody seems to be saying, “Hey, maybe these people are onto something. Maybe they’ve inadvertently seen something about vaccines that we didn’t realize. Even if vaccines don’t cause autism outright, perhaps vaccines affect already autistic children in a harmful way, or they turn a mitochondrial disorder into autism spectrum. Lets do more research.” Instead we get the dogmatic “It’s not vaccines, stupid, and off with your head!” It’s that kind of nastiness that makes one more sympathetic to the Jenny McCarthy side of this, even if one doesn’t think that vaccines are the actual cause.
It’s probably a bad idea to belittle and heap sarcasm on the parents of the autistic. They know how to deal with bullies.
Wade Rankin
Jun 6, 2008 at 10:05 pm
ANB,
I have made nothing up. Without identifying my source, I can only say that the explanation I gave was not made up, but came from someone in a position to know. Again, I was not a A-1 this year, but in past years the prohibition on video and audio taping was made pretty clear, as would make sense considering that much of the revenue making the conference possible in the first place comes from the sale of official discs.
You say you are “aware of no other explanation.” What explanation were you given?
Ms. Clark
Jun 6, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Wade, did you read Autism News Beat’s blog about being expelled? Maria, did you? Here’s a quote:
“I also attended a Q&A with Dr. Jon Poling, MD, PhD, and his wife, Terry. The Polings have been on a media blitzkrieg since March when they were identified as test case petitioners in the Vaccine Omnibus hearings. The details of the case are shrouded in speculation, since the Polings have not publicly released their daughter’s relevant medical records. I asked the Polings if they plan to release those records soon. Terry Poling said she and her husband would not discuss their daughter’s case as long as there was ongoing litigation.
Soon after I asked my question, a hotel security official asked me to turn off my video camera. At the conclusion of the Q&A, 15 minutes later, I was surrounded by hotel security and escorted out of the building. I had registered six weeks earlier as media, and received a confirming email. I was handed a press pass and told to fill it out myself at the registration desk Friday morning, after being told the computer system was down and my name could not be pulled up.”
http://autism-news-beat.com/?p=62
He was expelled purely for bring down the mood by asking a simple question in a very polite tone of voice (I heard an audio recording of the question being asked). He asked something like, “Do you have any plans to release Hannah’s medical records soon?” That’s it. He didn’t follow it with. “Well you guys sure are a bunch of…” or anything of the sort. Autism One granted him a press-pass. I saw the email where Ed Arranga (sp?) OK’d ANB to attend as a member of the press.
That the Autism One people would cook up an explanation like he wasn’t supposed to be video taping is …. typical.
That Wade Rankin would pass that story on, being in full-credulity mode, is also typical.
And again, that the rally organizers would inflate the numbers of attendees is also totally typical. They have done it for every single rally they’ve held so far. If they had been honest, in the past, ANB wouldn’t have felt the need to try to get his own estimate.
Wendy Fournier is full of something. I don’t know what it is, but it’s something not very nice.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jun 7, 2008 at 12:21 am
I appreciate Allen’s honesty at quoting his own statement — I would think that he knew what the effect would be.
HCN
Jun 7, 2008 at 1:50 am
Wade Rankin wrote “I was given was that his mistake was not asking a question, but was that he openly violated the rules (applicable even to the media) of videotaping the session without permission.”
Then how come the young lady who took these sets of videos was not expelled? …
http://combatingautismfromwithin.blogspot.com/search/label/Chicago
You can actually watch the same journalism panel from a different angle.
qchan63
Jun 7, 2008 at 2:20 am
RE “It’s probably a bad idea to belittle and heap sarcasm on the parents of the autistic. They know how to deal with bullies.”
H6, nearly every person posting here (including me) is the parent of an autistic person. Not every such parent marches in lockstep (or in green shirts, for that matter) with the vaccine conspiracists.
I work with a lot of reporters and one thing i know is that the best of them have a nose for good stories and a fierce drive to find them. I don’t think a good story is exactly what they’re sniffing when they get near the vaccine=autism hubbub.
So yes, it is “interesting that nobody seems to be saying, ‘Hey, maybe these people are onto something.’” Maybe, just maybe, that ought to tell you something.
Kev
Jun 7, 2008 at 4:17 am
“his telling Ms. Fourner she was “full of shit” hardly qualifies as the behavior of a journalist”
Its a journalists job to speak and report on the truth. Regarding Wendy Fournier, Arthur Allen did both.
Its amazing to me that for a group of people who claim to want total transparency, twice in a short space of time, journalists have been ejected from these gatherings. Whats being hidden?
Laura
Jun 7, 2008 at 7:26 am
In any science, nothing is 100%. To say that vaccines cause autism or that autism is not caused by vaccines, to me, seems a little…unscientific. Is it at all possible that there is any truth to the statement that vaccines do have adverse side affects in some cases and there is a small percentage of people that might be affected negatively by being exposed to these vaccines? Whether the side affects are death (including maybe SIDS), autism, mito disorders, etc., SOMETHING is causing these things. Instead of running around yelling “IT’S NOT VACCINES” or “IT’S VACCINES”, why aren’t there safety studies that are PUBLISHED that show the percentage of newborns NOT being harmed by the immediate vaccinations they are exposed to at birth? I’d be MORE THAN HAPPY to vaccinate every single one of my kids to the full recommendation of the CDC if they could just show me the studies conducted (by someone outside of the pharmaceutical companies/ties to a pharmaceutical company) that say the safety of these vaccines is so proven in newborn babies that it will not cause any adverse effects (outside of the usual redness and swelling at the site of the injection and slight fever and fussiness).
My daughter was extremely ill with each of her vaccinations, long before I knew that there was any controversy about vaccines. I kept telling her doctor that there was a connection to her illnesses and the vaccines and they immediately dismissed my concerns. What if my daughter is in that small percentage window that says “rarely” “this” happens. No account is ever taken for the “rarely” part of any study, saying essentially that it’s safe ALL the time for EVERY kid. We don’t know that, no one can prove that and yet my kids seem to have an adverse reaction and no one will look into it or take it seriously and I’m just supposed to sacrifice my kids for the good of all society.
I just want to read a study that has been done with integrity (from either side of this vaccine debate) that shows safety percentages in kids under three years old. Does any one have access to any of these? I simply can’t seem to find them. I don’t want the news report stating the outcome, I want the study itself.
Chuck
Jun 7, 2008 at 8:16 am
“Whats being hidden?”
Maybe a rude and arrogant journalist (Kirby doesn’t have the monopoly on THAT either) that you accept at face value.
Chuck
Jun 7, 2008 at 8:19 am
“Then how come the young lady who took these sets of videos was not expelled?”
Maybe she was a good journalist and got permission from those that she videotaped.
Chuck
Jun 7, 2008 at 8:27 am
“That’s why you’re losing.”
There were between 1500 and 2000 people present that got media attention to send out their message.
There was no counter demonstration.
One reported who was counter to the demonstration was asked to leave due to vulgarity.
When it comes to media attention, you lost this battle and the war continues.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jun 7, 2008 at 11:05 am
Pyrrhic victory in the long view………
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jun 7, 2008 at 11:06 am
Question is, without McCarty & Carrey, would the rally have gotten more than a bit of attention?
Wade Rankin
Jun 7, 2008 at 11:20 am
A pyrrhic victory can only be described as such with the advantage of historical perspective. Leaving aside the bellicose metaphors, I think we’ve all got a long way to go before we can claim to have the “long view” necessary to know the ultimate truth.
passionlessDrone
Jun 7, 2008 at 11:31 am
Hahahahaha! AutismNewsBeat will only allow the kind of questions he has answers for on his own blog; he has also been observed to selectively parse responses for which he has no logical reply. Karma strikes!
H6
Jun 7, 2008 at 11:33 am
In this war between the “Greens” and the “Authoritarians,” is there some middle position?
María Luján
Jun 7, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Hi Wade
we’ve all got a long way to go before we can claim to have the “long view” necessary to know the ultimate truth.
Well said.Thank you.
Hi pD
yes, karma strikes many times.
H6
Please clarify me what the Greens and Authoritarians are-therefore I may present you if at least I am in the middle or in paralell. Thanks
Chuck
Jun 7, 2008 at 12:25 pm
“What if”
There was a famous talking head for the “Pro-vaccine” at the rally.
There was a “Pro-vaccine” rally and less people showed up.
“What ifs” are only in Opinion pieces and fiction books.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jun 7, 2008 at 1:46 pm
The Romans did of course conquer all of Greece and much of the Mediterranean world after suffering those defeats by Pyrrhus but those wily Greeks (who kept asking questions) “conquered” the Romans ultimately……….
liquid zeolite
Jun 7, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Estimates are line a-holes … or is that opinions? We all have one. However, to say yours is 10 inches wide vs 2 inches is a bit of a streeeech, wouldn’t you say? Why lie? Therein lies the question.
Both the pro and anti vaccine movements are “not true”. To be true, they must have 100% of the truth and neither side does, unfortunately. What are the truths that both sides must agree with? 1) Vaccines are not 100% safe products by their nature. They can and do inflict harm sometimes. 2) How much harm vaccine cause is not known at this time. We can only speculate and spin numbers to try and determine how many will be hurt. 3) If you are unwilling to subject your child to any chance of harm, in other words, you are not willing to play Russian Roulette with your child’s health, then you must not vaccinate at all. You must then weigh the odds of contracting the disease or illness. This risk factor is what should be studied in detail in my opinion.
I could go on but I’m being summoned by a 2 yr old to go play. cya.
qchan63
Jun 7, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Chuck,
I think you misunderstand or misrepresent the nature of the debate here. I don’t think the people on this site identify primarily as “pro-vaccine,” so much as anti-bad-science and pro-respect (for autistic people). I speak for myself here, but i think plenty of others share similar views. My main concerns are that:
1. The never-ending hand-wringing about vaccines — in spite of an utter lack of credible evidence they’re linked to autism — robs attention and resources from areas of research and treatment that might actually show some promise.
2. The continuing characterization of autistic people as damaged or poisoned or the like denies them the simple right to be considered as complete human beings. Parents in the vaccines=autism camp generally don’t seem bothered in the least by describing their kids as broken or “stolen” or whatever, so long as it furthers their misdirected fury at vaccine-makers, pediatricians and whoever else they can lump in. But i think such stigmatization is harmful, shameful and very clearly wrong.
3. The continuing demonization of vaccines is already creating public-health issues because of families shying away from immunizations; that’s something that affects ALL kids.
All of which is to say that the label of “pro-vaccines” is meaningless; there’s much, much more to it than that.
Chuck
Jun 7, 2008 at 7:12 pm
qchan63,
1. Can you provide a list of federal research topics or federally provided treatments that show promise that have been intentionally underfunded or not funded as a direct result of vaccines?
2. This is an ongoing issue about developmental/psychological disorders that has been going since the inception of the first institution. Unless you can think of a way to make every person in the world think differently about all developmental/psychological disorders, ASD being a subset, it isn’t going away anytime soon.
3. There are many causes of adverse health and death for sicknesses that may or may not be preventable by vaccines. Parents have the right to make whatever choices the parents feel are in the best interest of the parent. The adverse reaction of these choices is what society has to measure and deal with. Science and society are often irrelevant when it comes to these choices. There are many people who are not current on some or all vaccines. Some by choice and some not. Who has created more of a risk to society, the ones that choose or the ones that didn’t? Do health choices in other countries create more of a risk to our society then our own internal choices? How can you determine that the “demonization of vaccines” has created health issues in this country?
AutismNewsBeat
Jun 8, 2008 at 9:56 am
“You say you are “aware of no other explanation.” What explanation were you given?”
I was given two explanations from A-1, and neither makes sense.
The first was that I was not registered. But I was, and A-1 by now has realized its mistake and knows that I was.
The second explanation was offered by an A-1 organizer as I was led from the building - “You’re taking a positive thing and turning it into a negative.”
Wade, if you had read my original blog post, then you wouldn’t have to ask these questions. They’ve all been answered. But you already knew that, too.
Wade Rankin
Jun 8, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Ken,
I did read your post about a week ago, after someone who knew what happened at A-1 asked just who the hell you are.
I asked you for the reasons because something seems to be missing from your explanation. As I have stated before, I have never — let me repeat that — never seen anyone, either journalist or participant, be given any flak at A-1 for simply asking a difficult question that a presenter might find uncomfortable. The entire purpose of the conference is to encourage a free exchange of ideas.
To put it more bluntly than I would ordinarily like (and only because you seem insistent), your story doesn’t pass the smell test with me. Maybe you’re 100% accurate in your description and I’m dead wrong. I really don’t know you well enough, however, to trust your word alone. I’ve heard a few unofficial explanations for your ouster, and as far as I know there has been no “official” word. I choose to believe the explanation that makes the most sense, based on the source and my experience with those who were involved.
Incidentally, I have to note that the question you asked the Pollings was kind of dumb in that context. If you were truly interested in getting the answer as a journalist, you would have chosen to request an interview rather than try to turn an educational conference into a press conference. That you chose to do it the way you did tells me you were more interested in being the story rather than covering the story. It’s been more than few years since I took J classes as an undergrad, but I seem to recall that was the type of behavior that was frowned upon by real journalists.
AutismNewsBeat
Jun 8, 2008 at 3:10 pm
I would have been happy to have asked Dr. Poling my question following his 7 am talk, but his handlers weren’t allowing any. That’s why the Q&A was held at 12:30.
Darn those pesky facts.
Frankly Wade, I don’t care what does and doesn’t pass your smell test. There’s much about you and your fellow travelers that smells like desperation to me. Like the fact you make things up and change your story over and over.
Do let’s recap: Wade’s most excellent source says I was expelled for making video without permission. But at no time was I told not to make videos, and it was obvious I was doing so all day Friday and for half a day Saturday. And an MD who was also videotaping the Q&A was questioned, but not expelled. But he didn’t ask a question. In addition, hotel security asked for my cell phone number, and said they could call me back and let me back in as soon as my registration was confirmed. That call never came, even though I was registered.
Does that pass your smell test, Mr. Rankin?
Didn’t think so.
qchan63
Jun 9, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Chuck,
As i tried to make clear, the main point of my earlier response was to show why describing people who don’t believe in the vaccines=autism hypothesis as “pro-vaccine” is simplistic to the point of meaninglessness.
I listed those 3 points to show why my own concerns go far beyond matters of vaccine policy. You can choose to agree with them or not, but the point is that i’m not coming at this from some great passion for the immunization program, but from a concern about the consquences of the rhetoric and hysteria coming out of the “Green our Vaccines” crowd.
That said:
1. It sounds as though you want me to list examples of research that HASN’T been done. That would be difficult, since research that goes unconducted generally also goes unpublished. I will say that pressuring the government to continue to research a hypothesis that has shown so little scientific merit is, at the very least, unlikely to be helpful, given the limited resources for research. Maybe we just disagree on this.
2. I agree that you can’t magically cause people to accept and appreciate those with disabilities. But that’s very different from saying it’s wrong to actively promote an image of autistic people as broken or damaged.
Here’s something “Green Our Vaccines” spokesmodel Jenny McCarthy just said about autism in an interview: “it’s like a spaceship came and stole the child’s soul.”
Do you hear people talk that way about kids with Down syndrome? Or even kids with Fragile X, a chromosomal disorder that can cause autism and mental retardation? And yet somehow it’s OK to disparage autistic people as long as you believe they became that way through “poisoning” or whatever?
Personally, i can’t even imagine describing my autistic son as not having a soul, but i guess people are willing to say a lot of things to keep feeding the hysteria.
3. I’m not sure i quite understand your point here. Of course parents have a choice, but they also have to bear the responsibility of their choices — and not just to the extent that those choices affect their own kids. Here’s an example of an unvaccinated child becoming a vector for a measles outbreak:
http://www.kpbs.org/news/local;id=10938
You ask: “Who has created more of a risk to society, the ones that choose or the ones that didn’t?”
The risk is the same: The difference is that those who have a choice have to take responsibility for what they decide.
Chuck
Jun 10, 2008 at 11:41 am
“Do you hear people talk that way about kids with Down syndrome? Or even kids with Fragile X, a chromosomal disorder that can cause autism and mental retardation?”
I have heard similar stories about Alzheimer’s, stroke victims, and Parkinson’s. Human nature being what it is, treats both medical and psychological disorders similarly.
The measles outbreak that you reference is yet another “import”. I counter it is more the Swiss government’s fault then the child’s because that is where the disease is still apparently active.
So the people in Ukraine need to take responsibility for being hospitalized due to the measles vaccine.
Which sounds worse?
US Population 304 Million. 64 cases measles, 14 hospitalized, no deaths
Ukrain Population 46 Million 90 hospitalized, 1 death due to vaccine.
People make choice, sometimes good and sometimes bad, because of information like this.
Have an opinion? Leave a comment: