“He’s Just a Late Talker—He’ll Grow Out of It”
A July 18th editorial by conservative thinker Thomas Sowell about the false diagnosis of autism—–it’s entitled “Rush to diagnose autism causes more harm than good“—-responds to some recently announced techniques to diagnose autism earlier in children. Sowell criticizes what he sees as the over-diagnosis of autism in young children who are really late talkers (keeping in mind that Sowell is the author of a author of a book about book about late-talking children) and decries the whole notion of the autism spectrum:
Those who diagnose children by running down a checklist of “symptoms” can find many apparently “autistic” children or children on “the autism spectrum.”
Parents need to be spared the emotional trauma of false diagnoses and children need to be spared stressful treatments that follow false diagnoses.
If a child is talking late—-as were the young son of a friend and the granddaughter of a work colleague—-I don’t think it hurts to seek out Early Intervention and have a child evaluated and even start some services (most likely speech therapy which, for a very young child, incorporates a lot of play). I am not sure what Sowell’s experience with any such services were; in his book, he does write about now-adult son as being a late talker. Far from being “stressful,” starting therapy with a child who may not yet be talking or who has yet to attain certain developmental milestones (keeping in mind that they are milestones) can be something of a relief. When my friend’s toddler son was not talking, he started to get some speech services and (she’s an autism therapist herself) she started to focus more on his language and communication too, and things are good and stress is not up, but down.
If we can get the message out that an autism diagnosis (however false or true) is not a death sentence and that there’s lots you can do, lots of hope, perhaps worried parents won’t cringe so much at that “a-word.” In some ways—with their belittling tone about Early Intervention and parents’ real, not hysterical, worries—is starting to sound reminiscent other language recently misapplied to autistic children.
I do have to admit, when Charlie was 18 months old, and neither used nor understood any language, and was clearly very different from the other children in daycare, there was no phrase I cringed at so much as “oh, he’s just a late talker; boys are like that—he’ll grow out of it.”
Tags: asd, asperger, autism, autism blog, disabilities blog, disability, late-talking, Parenting, pdd-nos, Science, speech, talking, thomas sowell, toddler
83 opinions for “He’s Just a Late Talker—He’ll Grow Out of It”
Mrs. C
Jul 18, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Having two other boys diagnosed at a children’s hospital, I think as I run down the checklist I’m mighty suspicious with my 20-month-old. But I don’t want to hear if he’s autistic yet. It would make no difference in the therapies he receives until he’s three from our state. They do therapies based on what the kid needs, not the diagnosis of the child.
But the he’s a late talker and he’ll speak in full sentences after his second birthday idea I think is really just people backhandedly clueing you in that they are not wanting to share your pain and concern. JMO.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Like Mike Savage, Sowell is also a right winger. These folks are sickening. In Sowell’s case, he doesn’t understand or care to even find out that late talking is only one sign, there is a triad.
AutismMom
Jul 18, 2008 at 6:23 pm
I’m confused about the “right winger” comment. What does someone being right wing and autism have to do with one another?
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jul 18, 2008 at 6:27 pm
@AutismMom, nothing necessarily—Sowell’s been referred to as such for some of his other work.
(e.g., http://www.conservativebookstore.com/fsowell.shtml)
AutismMom
Jul 18, 2008 at 6:34 pm
I just don’t want people to think because someone is conservative that they are bad. I’m conservative and I don’t think liberals are bad. When someone says “these folks are sickening” are they referring to conservatives? I like this site and your approach to autism–very positive–like mine. I’m hoping people will stick to autism instead of politics. Not blaming or complaining, just hoping….
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 6:42 pm
AutismMom,
Follow the link to Sowell’s post. He thinks people are getting autism diagnoses to get government checks (standard Republican garbage people are trying to get free money from the government, fear politics). It’s why McCain doesn’t want the Community Choice Act. Take a look at how well the justice department under Republicans enforce civil rights, IDEA and the ADA. There is a pattern there. They want to get rid of the Department of Education, they want to restrict parental rights in fighting the school systems (see recent Supreme Court Decisions). They spread fear about black people, gays and so forth to win elections and prey on people’s ignorance and fear.
AutismMom
Jul 18, 2008 at 6:54 pm
That’s fine if you are talking about Sowell, but not about right wing people. There are plenty of stupid right wing people when it comes to autism/education/politics, but there are also a lot of liberals that do some dumb stuff as well. They feel that the government is somehow behind childhood vaccines causing autism. They don’t want to blame their own genetic make-up, it’s easier to blame the government.
AutismMom
Jul 18, 2008 at 6:55 pm
btw, I don’t blame anyone. I consider my child a gift, not a mistake.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Good point autism mom. I agree. However, what effects our daily lives through laws and discrimination has come from conservatives who have codified their bigotry into the law that affects our ability for inclusion, opportunities and education, along with countless other minorities.
I’ll ask you this in all sincerity, “what is it that you believe conservatism means to you”?
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:04 pm
@AutismMom, You wrote “I just don’t want people to think because someone is conservative that they are bad. I’m conservative and I don’t think liberals are bad.”
more than totally agree!
AutismMom
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Personal responsibility and accountability.
Leila
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:14 pm
My friend has a 2-year-old who doesn’t talk yet; he was not diagnosed with autism (doctor thinks he’s ADHD) but he still got Early Intervention services. In my opinion, this Sowell guy has - besides the minimum state agenda - a prejudice against autism and he doesn’t want his son to be considered in the spectrum. A lot of people have trouble accepting the autism label and there’s a lot of euphemisms out there for them to latch on. I just sit back and shake my head. I read those kids’ symptoms and they are exactly the same or worse than my son who was diagnosed autistic.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Autism Mom, how is personal responsibility and accountabilty a conservative attribute? How might it be different than a liberal’s idea of personal responsibility and accountability?
Regan
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:16 pm
If I am correct, T. Sowell is in his late 70’s and his Ph.D. and major research area in economics and politics, with late-talking a personal hobby horse. Saying that one is an expert in what autism is not does not make one an expert in autism, and there has been some comment that there could be selection and personal bias coloring his interpretation of the situation.
These comments are more related to the Einstein Syndrome book, but I thought they had some relevance, in speaking to not delaying early evaluation,
“…Sowell is careful to state that ‘not all children who talk late’ are likely to manifest the Einstein syndrome. As he points out, children can be late to talk because they are hearing impaired, autistic, mentally retarded, or impaired in oral-motor skills…First, being a late talker may not be central to the definition of the ‘Einstein syndrome’. It may just appear to be associated with the exceptional analytical abilities and other characteristics because this was the common denominator by which Sowell and Camarata recruited their sample…”
From: Rescoria, L. (2003). Book review :The Einstein syndrome: bright children who talk late. Thomas Sowell. Basic Books, New York. Infant and Child Development, 12, 112-114.
IEP Veteran
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Sorry to continue this OT stuff, but I find it a little disturbing and feel the need to add my two cents.
Change a few words of CS’s earlier post and you get this:
“[Liberals] spread fear about [Republicans], [conservatives] and so forth to win elections and prey on people’s ignorance and fear.”
As for “what effects our daily lives”… let’s look no further than that Conservative Bastion *snort*: the public education system. A carnival of incompetence here in Los Angeles, yet no accountability.
AutismMom said:
“I’m hoping people will stick to autism instead of politics.”
Well said. It tends to get a little nasty otherwise.
AutismMom
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:36 pm
For example, I do not think that someone is a criminal because they grew up in a bad neighborhood. They are a criminal because they choose to be one. They need to take responsibility for that and pay a price for their crime, not blame society for turning them into one. And that tends to fall under a more conservative line of thought than a liberal one.
passionlessDrone
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Hi everyone -
As for Sowell: Worst advice ever, and pretty much the advice given by the pediatricians of most parents I know. It’s normal. Read this book about Einstein. Lots of kids don’t talk by now. Meanwhile, precious time ticks by. The biggest argument againt; it might be stressful for the wrongly diagnosed. I’m making a million dollar bet he hasn’t experienced the stress of raising a child with autism.
As for conservativism; the fact of the matter is that given our two choices, Republicans are much more likely to block legislation involving government subsidized treatment plans than their counterparts. Likewise, legislation favorable to the insurance industry is more likely to be crafted by Repulicans than Democrats.
- pD
Bonnie
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:48 pm
they told me Casey didn’t walk sooner because he was so big and he didn’t look at us because he probably had a hearing problem. Funny, he could hear one note from a game show theme on tv and make his way out of his room no time flat. Glad I never got that hearing test,
AutismMom
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:50 pm
IEP Veteran–thanks. I couldn’t agree more. Please, let’s just stick to autism. Sorry Kristina
Mouse
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:51 pm
While we are still in the process of getting a diagnosis (we suspect Asperger’s), we began bringing up with our doctor our son’s different use of language at 18 months. But he had the right number of words, so we were told not to worry. The figure we were constantly quoted is that 50% of late talkers (mostly boys) are caught back up to normal by age 5. To us, what stood out was that 50% don’t–and why not get started young rather than waiting until the child’s brain is less adaptive.
When we did finally get some speech therapy, at almost 4, it was for his pitch. And the work they did with him was so stressful that he started to stim. *That* is what finally got the first professional to even run an MCHAT on him. While the speech therapy did end up causing greater stress for a short time (it took several weeks of stimming before the original therapist called in the one with more experience), I figure at least it got some professionals to take us seriously.
RAJ
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Despite his politics, Sowell is absolutely right. But misdiagnosis of autism goes far beyond just ‘late talkers’. It includes mentally retarded children, childen diagnosed with genetic mental retardation syndromes (Fragile X, Downs Syndrome) and even Romanian orphans who have suffered extreme emotional deprivation.. Small subgroups in all of these conditions qualify for an ASD diagnosis which says a lot about the validity of DSM-IV, ICD-10 and all of the ‘Gold Standard’ diagnostic tools (ADOS, ADOS-G, ARI-R etc. ) all of which are based on DSM-IV and ICD-10 diagnostic criteria.
Kanner’s definition was incorporated in DSM-III (1980) as ‘A pervasive lack of responsivness to other people - autism’. To qualify for an autism diagnosis, Kanner’s definition had to be met.
DSM-III (1987) relegated Kanner’s definition to just one of five isolated symptoms and was no longer required to qualify for an autism diagnosis.
The global autism pandemic began in 1994 with the publication DSM-IV. DSM-IV completly removed Kanners definition entirely and substituted his definition with the vague, ambigous and subjective ‘Qualitative impairment in social interactions’.
There was another era, long forgotten, in the 1950’s when another unexplained rise in the incidence of autism ocurred.
Kanner explained that phenomena in an article published in Behavioral Science. An explanation that holds up today in explaining the perception of a global autism pandemic.
http://neurodiversity.com/library_kanner_1965.html
Kanner wrote:
“While the majority of the Europeans were satisfied with a sharp delineation of infantile autism as an illness sui generis, there was a tendency in this country to view it as a developmental anomaly ascribed exclusively to maternal emotional determinants. Moreover, it became a habit to dilute the original concept of infantile autism by diagnosing it in many disparate conditions which show one or another isolated symptom found as a part feature of the overall syndrome. Almost overnight, the country seemed to be populated by a multitude of autistic children, and somehow this trend became noticeable overseas as well. Mentally defective children who displayed bizarre behavior were promptly labeled autistic”
He also wrote:
“By 1953, van Krevelen rightly became impatient with the confused and confusing use of the term infantile autism as a slogan indiscriminately applied with cavalier abandonment of the criteria outlined rather succinctly and unmistakably from the beginning. He warned against the prevailing “abuse of the diagnosis of autism,” declaring that it “threatens to become a fashion.” A little slower to anger, I waited until 1957 before I made a similar plea for the acknowledgment of the specificity of the illness and for adherence to the established criteria”.
Tara
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:54 pm
passionlessDrone,
actually, if you read his book “Late Talking Children”, you’ll find out that Sowell quite succesfully raised an autistic son, although he will probably be the last person to admit that his son was/is indeed autistic…
I have to admit that I don’t have clear cut opinion on Thomas Sowell - many times I understand where he is coming from when he tells parents to question the “experts” and ask for 2nd and 3rd opinion. I also understand some of his misgiving on the education system. On the other hand, I can’t understand why he has such a hard time with the notion that autism is not a dirty word…
xtiluv
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Kai lost a year and a half of services because that was his doctor’s attitude. Unfortunately, I share in the blame, because I listened to the doctor. He was saying what I would rather hear.
I don’t think there is much harm in treatment (OT, PT, ST) if it is not needed, but there is a lot of harm if treatment is needed and not supplied. Err on the side of caution. It really is all about education of the child, and how can that be bad?
This is a touchy subject with me…It brings up feelings of resentment and guilt. I would rather do too much than too little. But, despite our setbacks, Kai is doing wonderfully and I am so proud of all the progress he has made.
Chuck
Jul 18, 2008 at 7:56 pm
“Democrats will support legislation involving government subsidized treatment plans. Likewise, legislation favorable to the insurance industry is more likely to be crafted by Repulicans than Democrats.”
Given that both of these choices are losers. This makes this a bipartisan “no win” situation.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Autism Mom,
“I do not think that someone is a criminal because they grew up in a bad neighborhood. They are a criminal because they choose to be one. They need to take responsibility for that and pay a price for their crime, not blame society for turning them into one.”
What liberals can you point to that think someone that commits a crime shouldn’t have to pay a price for the crime they committed?
2nd question: Isn’t this the same reasoning Sowell and Savage is using to dismiss some autism diagnoses?
I assume your only discussing poor people with this belief, is this correct?
Emily
Jul 18, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Republicans, Democrats…who can tell them apart?
Anyway, Sowell is full of it. Unfortunately, that doesn’t preclude his having the ears of many many people.
This “Einstein Syndrome” stuff would be funny if it weren’t so serious for the kids.
Chuck
Jul 18, 2008 at 8:28 pm
“What liberals can you point to that think someone that commits a crime shouldn’t have to pay a price for the crime they committed?”
Bill Clinton.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Chuck,
“Bill Clinton”
Clinton isn’t a liberal, he’s a moderate. However, please point me to the reference where Bill Clinton says someone that commits a crime because of their poverty or environment should go “free”.
Regan
Jul 18, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Well, I see that an article by T. Sowell on autism is prominently displayed on M. Savage’s website.
Somehow that’s not particularly surprising.
But a blogpost by Skeptico is. That was surprising.
And now excuse me, I think I need to go wash my eyes out with soap. G– bless the internet.
Chuck
Jul 18, 2008 at 8:52 pm
CS
Stop trolling for answers if you don’t like the results and redefining what “is” is.
farmwifetwo
Jul 18, 2008 at 8:54 pm
I don’t think Autism needs to be dx’d at 6mths. Little boy didn’t have behaviours until nearly 3. And being social it was difficult to tell if he had a communication delay or Autism, the SLP wasn’t certain so we waited a little longer since we had services.
A properly trained SLP will tell you it’s really obvious which are late talkers (social, use a lot of non-verbal to get their pt across, eye contact etc) than it is for one that has autism at 2 or 3 yrs old. That doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t start speech therapy if your child has no words around 18mths.
I still think the scale is too big, not convinced my eldest should be on it… but for right now he’s getting what he needs and since “speech and language delayed with global delays” got us zilch… we’ll leave it alone. We too got the “he’ll grow out of it”. Dh wanted to listen to them… I’m glad I refused to.
My Dr will tell you that the DSM-IV is written in such a way you can dx anyone with anything… BUT… she too will use that to get a child services if necessary.
If it wasn’t a political and $$$ issue, labels wouldn’t be necessary to get services… and that is wrong. Each child is different, with different needs… in a perfect world.
S.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Chuck,
I guess that means you don’t have proof or a link? Your just throwing a name out? I’d really like to see some linkage or proof please. I’m willing to certainly change my opinion, I’m just asking you for some help in this regard.
It is easy to repeat sound bites from AM radio, but you need to provide some proof to back up your argument.
Chuck
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:08 pm
CS,
Kevin Arthur Williams,Marlena Francisca Stewart-Rollins,Vernon Raymond Obermeier, Charles Wilfred Morgan
C. S. Wyatt
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Michael Alan Weiner (”Savage”) is a Ph.D in medical anthropology and homeopathic medicine. When not “Savage” he pushes dietary solutions to all sorts of problems. I dislike the man and his conspiratorial bent. Diet solving everything sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
Prof. Sowell is from a different generation. Most people over 70 have a clear view of “autism” based on the past. At least he doesn’t deny autism exists, which Savage comes close to doing. I can forgive the biases of the past, but not willful ignorance.
Generations have definitely changed.
As for politics… it’s all nonsense. The education system is not “conservative” but it certainly has failed many people. My “liberal” professors have certainly shown little tolerance for my differences. Sorry, but idiocy and ignorance know few political bounds.
Moderation has faded in the last 20 years, after a good run of nearly 50 years. Civil discourse was always the exception, sadly.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Autism Mom,
Still waiting on some reference from you as well.
Kristina,
Perhaps since you are the “passive aggressive” moderate here, you can give us a link to a program for the disabled that was a direct result of a conservative politician extending services paid for by tax dollars?
To the conservative Republicans:
What is your platform to help people with disabilities throughout their lifespan?
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Chuck,
“CS,
Kevin Arthur Williams,Marlena Francisca Stewart-Rollins,Vernon Raymond Obermeier, Charles Wilfred Morgan”
I don’t know those people or what they said, please provide a link showing they argued against punishment for a crime based on the criminal’s poverty/environment status. A name with a link would be most helpful.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:27 pm
CS Wyatt,
I agree, liberals and conservatives are equally biased against people with disabilities. What I am concerned with is which group routinely codifies into law those biases vs. the group which routinely seeks to expand opportunities of the disabled.
There has been a pattern in our country of conservative commentators and pundits to impugn people with disabilities from Michael Savage and autistics to Rush Limbaugh with Parkinson’s. McCain is now running on a platform that will keep people in institutions rather than living in a group setting in a regular neighborhood. This is the platform of the Republican party. Whether its gay marriage, affirmative action or whether Obama is a socialist Muslim, they win based on fears and playing to peoples prejudices.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:33 pm
@CS, or maybe just passive passive…….
This is not a link, but. I live in a very Republican town and, however it all worked out, it provides excellent services for special education students of many diagnoses. The one factor (Republican town) may not have anything to do with the other (special ed services). But it’s a Republican town.
Or maybe it’s Jersey politics (more aggressive aggressive).
Chuck
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:34 pm
IDEA is proof that both liberal and conservative politician routinely fail to fully extend services paid for by tax dollars.
There is your lack of proof for your argument covering every politician since 1974.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:44 pm
I’m not aware of any conservative Republican’s in NJ. I am aware of some moderate Republican’s there.
Republican’s in NJ are far different than Republicans in other parts of the country. But my question was dealing with Conservative Republicans.
I’m asking this aggressively because I think many times people have simply not examined this issue, and it is IMPORTANT to examine because your vote will certainly affect the lives of millions of people with disabilities and if you can’t answer the question specifically, you should re-examine your neutrality.
C. S. Wyatt
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:44 pm
@CS
On the health issue, easy: Orin Hatch pushed for several studies and funding related to mental health, environmental risks (including radiation from tests in Nevada), and more.
Jim Ramstad, a Minnesota Republican, has pushed for mental health coverage, autism treatments, and was very concerned with issues of dependence and suicide prevention.
Olympia Snow has also worked on health care legislation and patient rights.
To lump people together is simply foolish. There are morons in both parties. One of the biggest morons in the Republican Party was Bob Barr.. but he also pushed for millions in autism research and a study of (yeah, I think wrongly) vaccine safety.
To suggest party affiliation represents how much one cares is too simplistic. Conservative “Blue Dog” Democrats are curious proof of this.
The trick is to remind everyone of the potential savings resulting from early, adequate, and effective treatments for various conditions. Early interventions are always best, regardless of the health condition being debated.
I understand why Sowell would think there is an “autism industry” of sorts. The booths I saw at ASA selling expensive foods, therapies, treatments, whatever, are a business. They make money selling both feat and hope to parents: a fear of “the establishment” and the hope of a cure.
As a teacher, I saw the “ADD/ADHD” trend rise and fall — now in decline. Parents really did “shop” for diagnoses. Not all, but some, abused the system. I’m sure a lot of doctors made money prescribing drugs that were unessential.
Both sides are correct, to some degree. There are a few scam artists playing the system… and the system is sometimes dishonest or ineffective.
I worry time will come when we trust no one: not the government, not science, not educators… no one. And then what?
Chuck
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:47 pm
“McCain is now running on a platform that will keep people in institutions rather than living in a group setting in a regular neighborhood.”
Our very democratic governor fully adheres to the same belief in institutions and the democratic representatives fund it which is why it is rated as one of the worst states for services. You have quoted yet another bipartisan statement.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Chuck,
I agree, both parties have failed in regards to the IDEA.
I’m still waiting for the linkage though from you showing that liberals believe poverty/environment is a “get out of jail free card”.
AutismMom
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:49 pm
CS: “What liberals can you point to that think someone that commits a crime shouldn’t have to pay a price for the crime they committed?”
Nice strawman. I’m talking about causality, you’re looking for a fight. Your opening comment was simply an opportunity to paint people on the right as “sickening”. You bore me.
My bottom line is this: I plan on taking care of my son as long as I can and when I can’t, I’m sure someone in my family will. And if not, I hope I’ve given him the skills needed to get along. I sure as heck don’t want the government deciding what is best for him.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:49 pm
“Our very democratic governor fully adheres to the same belief in institutions and the democratic representatives fund it which is why it is rated as one of the worst states for services. You have quoted yet another bipartisan statement.”
Chuck, what state would that be and have the democrats in that state house/senate tried to pass legislation that would offer a choice?
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Ok Autism Mom, you have no proof. Its just a cliche. I’m not looking for a fight, I’m asking you to give proof for your statement.
“My bottom line is this: I plan on taking care of my son as long as I can and when I can’t, I’m sure someone in my family will. And if not, I hope I’ve given him the skills needed to get along. I sure as heck don’t want the government deciding what is best for him.”
Well, I hope the government gives your son a safety net because private corporations will not.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 10:06 pm
CS Wyatt:
“Orin Hatch pushed for several studies and funding related to mental health, environmental risks (including radiation from tests in Nevada), and more.”
My question was which conservative politician has expanded opportunities, services and inclusion programs for people with disabilities.
“Jim Ramstad, a Minnesota Republican, has pushed for mental health coverage, autism treatments, and was very concerned with issues of dependence and suicide prevention.”
Ramstad is not a conservative. He supports pro-choice, stem cell research and gay rights.
“Olympia Snow has also worked on health care legislation and patient rights.”
Olympia Snow is about as liberal as you get concerning social issues.
I said conservative/Republican and right wing. There are conservative democrats that are a disgrace as well. I never said anything about Democrats being any better, Zell Miller is about as bad as they come and he is a democrat. I said conservatives have done nothing to expand rights.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 10:15 pm
“I sure as heck don’t want the government deciding what is best for him.”
Neither do liberals, but we do want government to provide safety nets. Government conservatives always want to tell people who they can sleep with, where they can go to school or not (segregation) and whether or not they can be discriminated against while on the job or not and devaluing our lives by complaining about the cost of us during appropriations, because heck, all the disadvantaged, poor, disabled and minorities are all out there trying to live off of $1,100 in SSI a month because its such an easy and fun life. And when that poor person commits a crime, we want to tell the world that he is just using his poverty to explain why he stole a loaf of bread. May we all live in the strict world of Les Miserable.
VAB
Jul 18, 2008 at 10:44 pm
It is true that parents should be spared the emotional trauma of a false diagnosis and that children should be spared stressful treatments that follow diagnosis.
To do this, people should stop falsely equating the diagnosis of autism with trauma and treatments that are unduly stressful should be abandoned.
Sowell thought his own kid was developing differently and was cool with it. He encouraged him, nurtured him and got him some speech therapy. If he would focus on sharing that message, instead of trying to stigmatize the codification involved in getting state sponsorship for services similar or identical to those he provided to his son (which is what this is really about) then we’d get along fine.
CS
Jul 18, 2008 at 10:59 pm
CS: “What liberals can you point to that think someone that commits a crime shouldn’t have to pay a price for the crime they committed?”
Nice strawman. I’m talking about causality.
When society tells you that you are worthless, denies you an education because of the color of your skin, denies you even drinking water (see my blog), denies you the ability of a job to support your family, dehumanizes you through institutional obstacles that prevents your voice from being heard or your vote from counting, mocks you repeatedly by saying your making excuses for all the above and that its all your fault and when you find yourself without hope-without safety net, without inherited wealth born from a system of segregation, denial and exclusion all this because you happen to be born in a socially constructed caste system. I live in the South, I see and hear this all the time. It’s just the quiet bigotry shared between coworkers behind closed doors, during the sales call by the business owner complaining about all the welfare moms and at the same time not a single employee of his happens to be from a historically disadvantaged minority.
In my occupation, I accomodate the wealthiest of individuals, the most advantaged, the ones that use 80 corporations to shield themselves from taxation, that repeatedly move one shell company from an S to a C corporation because they don’t want to contribute to a civilized society that treats people with dignity no matter what their station in life is. I see individuals everyday that make millions of dollars every year yet pay virtually no tax because the powerful and influential exert influence on both parties. These same individuals fund campaigns of divisiveness and fear using peoples religious beliefs as wedge issues. Blame the poor black child or disabled child for causing school’s to have to divert funds from the beautiful, rich and white.
I see everyday how the “tax breaks” buys the yacht or the 3rd home on the lake, when it was sold to the public as creating jobs. Let me fill you in on something. Tax breaks for business, especially privately held corporations which make up the majority of corporations in this nation, don’t go to create more jobs. They go to expanding personal largess of the shareholder. They go to large tax exempt irrevocable trusts set up to keep the trustee from ever having to pay a dime in tax while the guy that serves you burgers at McDonald’s pays more in taxes from an $8/hr job than a man with an aerospace company with $10 million in inventory and a shareholder pass through of $2.5 million. This isn’t atypical America, this is TYPICAL! This is part of what shapes my views. Because I work with the wealthy everyday, I see things you folks don’t see in what you do. I get into the “weeds” on the financial statements, I extend them loans not available to you, Average Joe, I give them terms not available to you.
Because I see all this on a daily basis, I become angry when average joe’s buy into rhetoric that is used to get you to vote against your own economic interest. They are pulling the wool over your eyes. They are using wedge issues to perpetuate this system. Get you to think that its all about gay marriage, affirmative action, welfare queens, and criminals getting off because of their poverty. They look at you people as sheep when they hear you talk say things like “I sure as heck don’t want the government deciding what is best for him” because they know that isn’t the argument from proponents of social change and justice. Its about opportunity, inclusion, education and safety nets for those not born with the same advantages of the majority.
C. S. Wyatt
Jul 18, 2008 at 11:53 pm
CS wrote “I see things you folks don’t see.”
I was the VP of IS for a mortgage bank. It was owned/operated by a major “Democrat” who greased all the right wheels in California, just as Fannie and Freddie were operated primarily by crooked Democrats and a few token Republican crooks. Crooks are crooks are crooks.
You should never assume people here don’t have a variety of experiences and expertise. I left the tech field to return to teaching and autism research. Others might still be in the corporate world. Many of us are academics. Others are simply great parents.
Instead of attacking political views, which is not the point here, offer ideas to better educate the public about autism.
Political debates here only serve to further divide a community that has a common interest: helping individuals with autism achieve the most they can.
I don’t care if a social conservative, a social liberal, or the Jolly Green Giant has the best new idea. I just want to hear all the ideas that might help.
Chuck
Jul 18, 2008 at 11:53 pm
“Chuck, what state would that be and have the democrats in that state house/senate tried to pass legislation that would offer a choice?”
I don’t know what they have tried to pass, but nothing has passed in the past 7 years we have be on the state waiting list for services because the budgets are predominantly for institutional expenses. The potential opening for services should be in 2010.
Chuck
Jul 19, 2008 at 12:02 am
“We do want government to provide safety nets.”
Liberal governments, like Louisiana, always tell you exactly what they will give you and always demonstrate exactly what they are capable of giving to you.
Club 166
Jul 19, 2008 at 12:04 am
@CS,
Could it possibly be that you are upset with Sowell because of his political views, and not so much because of what is written in his book?
Although I haven’t read the book, I did follow Kristina’s link and read the several pages excerpted there.
I’m with VAB. Sowell recognized he had a “different” kid, he took the advice of a friend that said to just love the heck out of him and take him everywhere, and he got him speech therapy and successfully raised a kid who was perhaps on the spectrum.
Sowell also stated that he wasn’t trying to say that autism didn’t exist, only that he felt that it was overdiagnosed. The idea that one possible reason for the rise in autism diagnosis is the availability of support (mainly access to speech and OT programs) was not developed by Sowell, only echoed by him. There are those of a neutral political bent who have said the same.
Although I don’t agree with everything Sowell said, I find it far less offensive than those who demonize autistics in one breath, and offer miracle cures in the next.
Joe
JoyMama (formerly Annie)
Jul 19, 2008 at 12:27 am
I find myself wondering just how Sowell would have autism diagnosed, if not via a “checklist of symptoms.” Aren’t the DSM IV criteria, at their core, basically a “checklist of symptoms”? And at this point, that’s what autism IS, by definition.
Right?
So if not the DSM, then what?
navi
Jul 19, 2008 at 12:28 am
I’d been hoping tristan was a late talker, but then, with his regression, I should have known better - I’d a friend with a kid that didn’t talk until he was three, I was at the time hoping that’d be the case for Tristan (oddly enough that friend’s older, not late talker son ended up diagnosed with aspergers, but the late talker doesn’t have any diagnoses). However, when autism was presented, while i did look at the requirements, and think well, a hell of a lot of kids could be diagnosed with those (I had originally figured Tristan was severely adhd, having experience with his adhd dad), I was thrilled he’d get services, and preschool.
mayfly
Jul 19, 2008 at 12:34 am
There seems to be a gut reaction from some. Sowell is not an autism expert, however he is stating that some diagnosed with autism would have received a different diagnosis or no diagnosis in the past. This is a broadly supported position. Any review of the “epidemic” question will demonstrate that.
I’ve seen posts that regional centers which in California are responsible for the delivery of services to autistics outside the classroom are overstating the problem to gain more money, and that from someone who blames society’s problems on “rich white people” suggesting a left-of-center view.
Both the left and the right want to raise awareness of the problems they feel must be addressed. If you disagree with the problem, you can dismiss their concerns as fear mongering.
Two cases in point : Terrorism and global warming.
No sane person is for either. It is a shame though that when a discussion turns to what needs to be addressed more the sides often do not think the people are wrong but evil.
This is also true of much of the neurodiversity debate.
I will say there are more on the left which think the right evil than on the right. Also it seems there are more believers in neurodiversity that believe not supporting it is evil, than those who don’t cotton to neurodiversity’s ideas. These are generalities not absolutes. That is there are plenty of neurodiversity supporters who simply believe its opponents are wrong, not evil.
David L.
Jul 19, 2008 at 12:58 am
I was a late talker, not talking until I was 4 years old. No speech therapy was given me; my parents rightly figured I would talk when I was ready, which I did. Only a few years ago did I find out that I indeed did have autism. I feel I could have easily met the criteria for autism even back then, but it was for the best that I didn’t get diagnosed. I get the impression that Mr. Sowell just doesn’t want to spend money on supporting those with autism. I have run into people with the seemingly generous attitude that we are all equal really just looking for a way to not have to make any accommodations.
Cliff
Jul 19, 2008 at 3:31 am
On Sowell: to me, this is very much in the selection by production bias; if it produces the right result, it is “Einstein Syndrome”, and if it’s not it’s autism. Never mind the condition itself and the tenants of both that make them the same in nature. It’s double-speak to say that if a quality makes an individual get a result we want, it is one thing, but if that same quality makes an unsatisfactory result, it is another entirely.
Now, do I think that autism isn’t misdiagnosed as certain other conditions? Sure, it can be. But if we’re going to be talking about a personal condition, we might as well be frank and talk about it in its entirety, which includes the broader diagnosis of the DSM-IV. It’s not helpful to split the condition when suddenly it seems to converge on behaviors that might be seen as ok or even wanted.
As to the politics; I think Autism Mom is genuinely correct in saying that the bedrock of conservatism does rest on particular notions of personal responsibility (and, along with that, family), and it is in regard to the discussion of the casual nature of criminal behavior. They happen to be notions I don’t personally agree with, but they are there. Now, does that mean that progressives tend to believe in not holding people responsible for crimes? No, but it is a program which is based on preventing the circumstances that would drive people to criminal behavior.
As to bias against individuals with disabilities, just having done work with legislators and the like, some notions of autism can sometimes seem different (not as an absolute, mind you). On both sides, I hear “bad parenting/bad behavior” statements, but I hear it more often if I was talking to a conservative. On both sides, I hear “unfortunate tragedy” statements, but I am more likely to hear it talking to a liberal. Note I find neither helpful in actual describing autism.
Now, for me, I actually do find that, in terms of advocacy groups, progressive ones tend to be less biased from how I see the issue. That makes sense; groups that identify with “civil liberties” are dominantly on the left. But, even here, this is a small enough part of the “liberal establishment”, and even here it is only more likely (not certain at all) that those individuals will accept disability advocacy as civil liberties.
A lot of absolute/presumptuous statements to be careful of, though. I hardly am saying one party individual is going to act in a way on such an issue. And it is always a very tough claim to say “I see what you don’t” without it being a detail-oriented matter.
Cliff
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jul 19, 2008 at 5:24 am
In our case, when people said of Charlie “oh, he’s just a late talker,” it was painful to hear—-the message was that we were being “hysterical” in thinking that Charlie might actually have “something severe.” As VAB wrote, if Sowell focused on the message of being ok with a child developing differently—–a simple but important message that does not get out there enough—-that would be something to stand behind.
Chris
Jul 19, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Some reaction from a speech disorder support group several years ago:
http://www.apraxia-kids.org/site/c.chKMI0PIIsE/b.980831/apps/s/content.asp?ct=464705
Also, why would anyone take the advice of an economics professor over that of a trained speech and language pathologist?
Sarah
Jul 19, 2008 at 1:13 pm
I agree with Club166 and farmwifetwo. The problem I have with Sowell’s message is the insistence on separating bright, Einstein-esque “late-talkers” with autistics. Because, we all know that autistics aren’t bright and have no skills. He also does not appreciate the benefits of a diagnosis in terms of getting services and just plain old understanding, but that’s just typical conservative stuff (IMO). He still does seem to have a better appreciation of developmental differences than a lot of the people who promote panic and hysteria over autism and the faux epidemic.
His argument is problematic, but I don’t think he’s entirely wrong in saying that super-early diagnosis is not always warranted or necessary. I’m a bit skeptical about diagnosing ASD at six months. How many false positives and false negatives would such a test produce? What kinds of help would be available to such a young infant possibly on the spectrum?
Unfortunately, any good points he may have get kind of washed away amidst the “autism is scary and hopeless” rhetoric.
bcc
Jul 19, 2008 at 2:50 pm
CS, it looks like you’re on the wrong blog. It’s tedious paging through your political propaganda on what’s *supposed to be* a post about late-talking and Thomas Sowell. Maybe if you hyperlink on over to Daily Kos, you’ll have more fun.
Chuck
Jul 19, 2008 at 4:15 pm
“I’m still waiting for the linkage though from you showing that liberals believe poverty/environment is a “get out of jail free card”.”
I provided that answer. If you can’t figure out who those people are, there is no hope for you in this discussion.
Phil Schwarz
Jul 19, 2008 at 10:28 pm
@Autism Mom: Personal responsibility and accountability are not “conservative” values to any greater extent than they are “liberal” values. Claims to that effect are rhetorically fallacious overreaching. As are claims about one side or the other being the sole promoter of “family values” or “faith”.
Susan
Jul 23, 2008 at 3:24 pm
MY post is in response to “educating about fear of autism”
Actually the real message that needs to be brought out is pushing for accurately done examinations for children.
The real problem is in many cases with late talkers examinations are not being done accurately.
Late talking is not the hallmark of autism.
So many times in my own support group at latetalking.org the response I hear given by school systems ( and others ) to parents who want scientific process and integrity when their child is observed through testing -is the claim their demand for accuracy is about fear of autism.
Requiring a test to be done accurately is not about fear of any condition or diagnosis .
It is about medical accuracy, and scientific accuracy - nothing more, ….nothing less.
If I were having my eyes examined whether I needed glasses, and I wanted to know correctly if I needed glasses and if so the correct lenses for my eyes, I would not want to be told that ” I am afraid of near-sightedness ” and that is why I am demanding accuracy.
It is unbelievable how hoodwinked parents are and how they are manipulated away from properly done evaluations, exams , testing , and even seeking out medical help.
Laura
Jul 23, 2008 at 5:28 pm
As a former member of the official Yahoo late talker group (Powell’s beliefs are the expressed foundation of the group philosophy), I can say with authority: it’s all bullsh*t. “Late talking” is PDD. The members of the group dodge doctors, administrators and even speech therapists. Their children present exactly like mine does, to a tee.
In regards to the conservative slant, I don’t know if anyone here has made the connection but Dr. Camarata (this guy: http://latetalkers.org/index.php ) provided the basis for Savage’s controversial remarks. Click on the July 21 segment: ( http://www.talkradionetwork.com/premiumstream;jsessionid=FB4CB98E17AD2CBD3641DF3170AEE312?dispid=304&headerDest=L3BnL2pzcC9tZWRpYS9mbGFzaHdlbGNvbWUuanNwP3BpZD0zMjY2JnBsYXlsaXN0PXRydWUmY2hhcnR0eXBlPWNoYXJ0JmNoYXJ0SUQ9MzA0JnBsYXlsaXN0U2l6ZT05MA==)
Jen
Jul 23, 2008 at 7:27 pm
The criteria for “late talkers” according to the latetalkers.org website are:
“1. Outstanding and precocious analytical and/or musical abilities
2.Outstanding memories
3.Strong wills
4. Highly selective interests,leading to unusual achievements in some areas and disinterest and ineptness in others
5.Delayed Toilet Training
6.Precocious ability to read and/or use numbers and/or use computers
7. Close relatives in occupations requiring outstanding analytical and /or musical abilities
8.Unusual concentration and absorption in what they are doing.”
It describes my son to a tee, and guess what- he’s been diagnosed with PDD-NOS or “mild” autism. He started to talk just after his third birthday, and is now communicating pretty well with his caregivers, but it’s also illustrated how appropriate his diagnosis is… His language tends to be repetitive, he stims on the alphabet (singing it, or just saying it sometimes) and he counts everything… Yet, we’ve been told over and over again (mostly by well-meaning relatives) that they’re sure nothing is wrong with him, because he’s obviously so bright, and have we heard of Einstein syndrome? Late talking might not the only criteria for autism, but it’s an important one, and when you have a child that isn’t interacting with peers (even if they interact with adults), and is showing an obsessive interest in number or letters (or something else), then chances are, that child’s on the spectrum, and telling yourself that they’re not talking “because they’re so bright” means that that child isn’t getting the services that they need. (As I live in Ontario, it also means that you’re wasting valuable time getting on the waiting list for services, which is estimated to be about two years in my area!)
bcc
Jul 24, 2008 at 12:58 am
@ Laura from Jul 23, 2008 at 5:28 pm above:
Did you even *read* the Sowell editorial this post was about? It specifically refers to Stephen Camarata and his work with children (both on and off the spectrum) at Vanderbilt. Ergo your BIG SCOOP “I don’t know if anyone here has made the connection but Dr. Camarata (this guy: http://latetalkers.org/index.php ) provided the basis for Savage’s controversial remarks.” is a little bit like the “DUH!” heard ’round the world.
As for the rest of your post, I was left confused. “As a former member of the official Yahoo late talker group (Powell’s beliefs are the expressed foundation of the group philosophy), I can say with authority: it’s all bullsh*t. “Late talking” is PDD. The members of the group dodge doctors, administrators and even speech therapists. Their children present exactly like mine does, to a tee.”
Who the hell is Powell? How did you develop your remarkable ability to differentially diagnose a few thousand children you’ve never met? And are you really so sure you’d like a crack at mine? Because she’s seen a both a developmental pediatrician and a pediatric neurologist and neither of them think she’s PDD-NOS, so I’d love to know what makes YOU so sure she must be - merely because I read the Yahoo late-talkers list. PLEASE SHARE.
By the way, how exactly am I dodging doctors by taking her to the pediatric neuro and the developmental ped in search of diagnoses? And am I doing the same thing by taking her to an S.T. on a weekly basis? In addition to the O.T. and the services she gets in Pre-K? All along I thought she had a language delay but it seems you think you know more, and that “Late talking = PDD.”
Or are you, by some chance, talking out of an orifice other than your mouth?
Susan
Jul 24, 2008 at 1:17 pm
There are some confused people about the chicken or the egg regarding Savage.
Savage never knew Camarata originally , Camarata may have been aware that Savage exists as a talk show person, and Savage never knew Sowell before Savage’s remarks.
Savage was up to his usual sensationalism which is what he gets paid to do , talking about over diagnosis but in a hyperbole manner. His statistics were not correct.
I personally do not agree the statistic of overdiagnosis is 99 percent because of brat kids or parents trying to get free funding.
If someone listens carefully, Camarata did not agree with Savage about these statistics.
He was quite clear about sloppy testing and bad scientific process as a cause.Camarata said that clearly on the show but in different wording.
Its very complicated , and no one really can give one reason for it.
Sowell’s books and articles are not to be taken as peer reviewed scientific studies .He is correct there is a problem, but clearly more studies needed to happen to get at the bottom of perfectly normal children who happen to talk late, end up socially fine like everyone once language comes in.
Savage and Sowell both politicize it, which over time takes people away from focusing on the rea problems.
Its the sloppy linear assumptions that is causing over diagnosis.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jul 24, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Yes, I’ve tried to see Sowell’s views as, in many ways, from personal experience, though that perspective does not come through so much in his writing.
Susan
Jul 24, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Someone incorrectly stated in some post above that the criteria for late talkers was Sowell points in his book.
As far as I know the website lists Sowell’s orignial observations and traits for parents who are exploring whether their child is strictly a bright late talking child in which the late talking normalizes without speech intervention. The website goes much further into this - once again, bloggers love taking things out of context.
These children are being studied over time.
There are a lot of self professing individuals who are putting blogs online diagnosing other parent’s children, and misrepresenting other people’s groups. As well lurking on private lists and copying private material on the internet.
As far I as know, the intent of the latetalking.org site is to get parents to qualified professionals who are properly trained in CARS, ADOS, Peabody, Leiter intelligence test, where appropriate.
Also qualified professionals need prior experience with children who are late bloomers in speech , experience in aphasia, phonological issues, mixed receptive expressive language disoders, Hearing issues, expressive language disorder, PDD , PDD-NOS.
These are very experienced clinicians who acknowledge much research is and still needs to be done.
I write this as a warning to parents who are reading blogs written by amatuers claiming they are able to write their own medical manuals.
Stick with the professionals.-Susan
Susan
Jul 24, 2008 at 2:05 pm
I was somewhat puzzled by some of the writing above and may have mixed up a few authors.
But to clear up any confusion, I thought I would go to the latetalking.org website and directly copy what is on the front webpage so there is no misinformation put on the autismvox website.
Because the process on the most part ( in the group from latetalking.org ) has been for parents to seek out professional help for their child when necessary, and work on speech enrichment a communication at home, not a lot of time has been put into dealing with individuals who like to spend time misrepresenting others.
Because so much of this type of behavior has happened in recent months , I know the website will be revamped to address misinformation put out there..
For the record, -Sowell is not a clinician .If anyone reads the book - it is not a peer reviewed medical journal. It is a book asking questions in a journalistic fashion . I personally read these approaches with caution just as recent blogs that are misrepresenting people.
Einstein Syndrome is by no means a “syndrome” in the DSM IV, and many parents who are exploring bright late talkers that later normalize with speech, understand this.
Although Sowell involved himself with claiming political agendas as well as Savage, politics are not part of the mission or goal of the parents who are working to have their child fairly and correctly medically and behaviorally evaluated.
Below - the intro on this website clearly does not cover all the questions.
____________________________________
For parents of latetalking children there are few support groups , specifically designed ,concerning children who are latetalkers and have many of the characteristics written in Thomas Sowell’s book.
This site is to help Parents of late talkers , who feel that their child may have been incorrectly diagnosed with another disorder only because their child is a late bloomer in speech .
We all know the story told by relatives about a cousin who spoke late and turned out to be very bright.
Unfortunately , a trend has developed to panic parents , and to rush to bring on a misdiagnosis because the behaviors in latetalkers can mimick Autism or other issues .
If you are a parent and find yourself in this situation , or are exploring and working to understand your child as a late talker , please come and join us !
This group and site also works to help parents be aware of who might be available to evaluate their child correctly without false diagnosis to get free services. It is not the fault of parents who are pushed into this for free services , but this group explores ways to be able to seek constructive alternatives with a more scientifically correct approach instead of what is encouraged by the current bureaucracy of some early intervetion services.Dr Stephen Camarata is one of the researchers mentioned in Thomas Sowell’s books and is one of the most helpful guides in helping parents of late talkers.
Information : list of traits in bright late talking children discussed in Thomas Sowell’s book. I want to credit the quotes below to Thomas Sowell in his book , and that these similar Traits are found in Dr Camarata’s studies .
1. Outstanding and precocious analytical and/or musical abilities
2.Outstanding memories
3.Strong wills
4. Highly selective interests,leading to unusual achievements in some areas and disinterest and ineptness in others
5.Delayed Toilet Training
6.Precocious ability to read and/or use numbers and/or use computers
7. Close relatives in occupations requiring outstanding analytical and /or musical abilities
8.Unusual concentration and absorption in what they are doing.
Regan
Jul 24, 2008 at 2:13 pm
In sincerity, I hate to say “listen to the show”, but the 7/21 archived broadcast is the one that Dr. Camarata is on if you want to hear him first hand. His segment is about 1/2-2/3 of the way through the program in case you want to do something else until he comes on.
It’s too bad that there isn’t a serious program where you could listen to a serious roundtable by people like Camarata, Minshew, someone from the MIND, etc. get together to discuss these matters to hear their observations first-hand and see what the areas of overlap and difference are as opposed to commentary and reaction on something like the M.S show.
If everyone was able to go to Vanderbilt to get that lengthy, exhaustive (and expensive?) eval, that might be a nice thing, but unfortunately that doesn’t seem possible.
Chris
Jul 24, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Susan said “Einstein Syndrome is by no means a “syndrome” in the DSM IV, and many parents who are exploring bright late talkers that later normalize with speech, understand this.”
Well that is certainly true. Einstein could actually speak when he was just a bit over two years old (something my oldest could not do). I mentioned this in my essay along time ago (hey, it is still there! some of the links are dead, though I quit the listserv a few years ago):
http://www.apraxia-kids.org/site/c.chKMI0PIIsE/b.980831/apps/s/content.asp?ct=464411
About ten years ago Camarata had a website on the “Einstein Syndrome”, and late-talking stuff. I sent a question through it, and it was never answered. My son still does not quite have terribly great speech, and he struggles. He is still getting disability services, more recently for employment.
There are also lots of different speech and language disorders. To get a good overview read Patti Hamaguchi’s book “Childhood Speech, Language and Listening Disorders, What Every Parent Should Know”. She is a speech/language pathologist.
Which reiterates what I said before, and what I believe Susan is saying: Do not look for answers from an economist, go to a real SLP.
(Note: My younger son had many of the issues in that list. He refused to get potty trained, while my more disabled older son was right on schedule. My younger son did get language therapy between the ages of 3 and 5. That all of the treatment he ever had. He is NOT autistic, he is a very normal teenager — he thinks the Zits cartoonist has a camera in our house, and he did score a 1970 on the SAT in June. So not every child who is slow to talk is autistic, nor will they become super smart kids later — my older son never passed any standardized test).
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jul 24, 2008 at 3:19 pm
It’s been a long time since I read Sowell’s Late-Talking Children and the book was not helpful for us, but my son had a lot more needs that were quite apparent. I noted particularly how Sowell referred to his own son who was a late talker and a certain insistence how that was all there was to it (I’m not saying more than that!).
The book was written some years ago and the landscape for Early Intervention is very different. This discussion makes me think it’s most important to emphasize, suspicion of autism in a young child can be positive and need not be scary—-but it is, if we make it so.
Susan
Jul 24, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Hi Kristina ,
Yes, you are correct - one should not say more about another parent’s child because one can’t as a non-professional - I would not either.
This is one of the principles that are so important .
Only qualified professionals should , through appropriate process,…… diagnose.
From what I remember, Sowell did seek out professionals, and the main point of the book was getting a qualified professional, and getting speech therapy when needed, and getting appropriate medical examination and hearing tests.
Some of the outcomes of the children were not necessarily concluded. What was correctly pointed out was faulty processes in examination.
Important to note is lucking out and being correct as a professional but using poor process simply is not good enough and people should be made aware.
One of the biggest problems in the large community is that many people have a very weak scientific background.
I am not that much stronger , but having grown up with scientists in my family, I was taught to distinguish correctly between different processes.
For example, I have noticed many people have a hard time distinguishing the difference between finding a qualified professional, and choosing anyone on the block that postures authority , and why this is an important issue.
I have heard parents advised to use a qualified professionals with good capabilities, credentials and experience, while others immediately get hysterical and claim that person for qualified professionals is advising not to go to a professional- just because one is advising using discernment.
Now, in my background of being around scientists, I know and can distinguish between these two issues below:
1. seeing a qualified professional,
2. Seeing an unqualified professional.
Not only knowing the difference between these two items are important, but understanding why it is important and why this is suggested is important.
There is no hidden agenda .
Seeing a capable experienced professional and how to discern that, always will be, the right process.
There is a common claim by some that going to a good experienced professional has something to do with fear is at times used as a type of emotional blackmail. Instead of respecting a person’s objectiveness and discernment , one is trying to play games of belittling the person right choices in process.
The logical process in correctly identifying a flower, condition, disease, syndrome, plant, ethinic background, species, planet, has to do with doing things right - not fear.
Getting a child properly examined with objective observation is exactly what it is .
The book was helpful for me, but my child did not necessarily fit the classic points of that book.
Karen
Jul 25, 2008 at 4:35 pm
I have a late-talking son and read Sowell’s book as well. I was quite comforted by it, actually, and didn’t find that he was against services, but that he thinks people should question any diagnosis they do not feel is correct. I also disagree w/ getting services not needed and that it doesn’t harm the child. My son was evaluated by Early Intervention and we were given a whole roster of issues - Sensory, ASD, low muscle-tone, etc. In 6 months he outgrew about 90% of the behaviors they cited for their evaluation (which took 45 minutes by the way). When they tried to give him “treatment” for the issues they decided he had, he would become incredibly upset and frustrated. It’s hard to describe what a nightmare this time period was for us, but I have spoken to many parents who experienced the same thing.
I feel that if a child doesn’t have an illness or disorder they should not be treated for one. If you also treat them for the wrong disorder you may not find the real root of the issue they do have. I also have been shocked by how many people in the system have advised me to let Early Intervention, and anyone else, label my child with anything to get free services - regardless of the fact that my child will then be labeled as something they are not. When you do let them label your child w/ something they may not have, and also agree to share that w/ the public schools, it can haunt you. My neighbor had a kindergarten teacher try to have her son, who was definitely behavioral but not on the spectrum of autism, removed based on the diagnosis of ASD he was given as pre-schooler. She didn’t want to deal w/ his behavioral problem and it was an easy way to get him out of her class. The reason he was diagnosed w/ ASD was because he was not talking at 3 but then he came up to speed by 4. They went through hell getting that diagnosis reversed and officially on record. The bottom line - If my son were Autistic I would be fine with that and do everything in my power to get him what he needs. But I will not acccept someone giving him that diagnosis just to get services or provide the doctor’s with some sort of label to explain why he talked late.
Jodi
Jul 25, 2008 at 6:54 pm
The basic truth is there are a bunch of evaluators out there declaring children autistic or ASD that have no business doing so. It’s the Wild, Wild West, with schools doing some of the diagnosing or “assessing” as they like to call it, and psychologists and developmental pediatricians doing some of it.
Too many of these evaluators haven’t had the proper training (all the tests require HOURS of training to give, and the tests are recalibrated on a regular basis.)
And what’s wrong with Early Intervention, you say? Like so many things, EI is all over the map in quality and level of services. Speech therapy for a late talker could be a great thing, but Applied Behavior Analysis could be a DISASTER for a child who isn’t autistic.
And the incredible danger in this is that families are going bankrupt running from unproven therapy to unproven therapy.
A Michigan family was on the news…they went bankrupt because they spent so much on therapy. Now their son is “cured” of autism— guess why? Because his LANGUAGE came in.
Jane
Jul 25, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Leila wrote: “A lot of people have trouble accepting the autism label…”
The reason a lot of people may have trouble accepting the autism dx is because they know it is not the correct dx for their child.
My child was misdx’d at age 22 months. I knew it, his EI therapists knew it and I didn’t worry too much about it at first because to me it seemed evident the dx was incorrect.
When he transitioned to special education preschool and BEFORE the new therapists received his IEP, I did not tell them about his dx. (I did not know it would be written on the IEP, was told it would not follow him). Prior to their receiving it, his therapies were appropriate to his needs, I was told how well he was doing and everything went smoothly.
As soon as they received the IEP and read the dx, his therapies CHANGED! Why? Because now they were providing techniques and therapies to coincide with a dx, not with the child.
Here is a simple way to put it for those who have a child on the spectrum. You might have heard time and time again your child was just a late talker. That was very frustrating for you because you KNEW that was not correct and something else was going on.
It is just as frustrating for parents whose kids are late talkers or have expressive/receptive language disorder when they are told their kids are autistic. They KNOW that is not right. It is just as demeaning to those parents when no one believes them when they say it is not autism.
I don’t understand why some parents who have a child with autism INSIST that if a parent will not accept the autism dx it is because they are in denial. How are we any different? We are not!
Imagine if the school district INSISTED to you that your child did not have autism, but was instead severely mentally retarded, but don’t worry! We will give your child services.
Would that be okay? Would you believe that those services would be appropriate for you child? I think not!
It is not any different to those of us who KNOW our child is not on the spectrum. That does not mean we run from evaluators and the school district. My SD insisted my son was PDD-NOS. I had him privately evaluated 5 times! Each time I was told he was not on the spectrum.
I had him evaluated so many times because I was so afraid of my being wrong and not getting my child the services he might need, but he was DEFINITELY stressed from getting inappropriate services.
I finally once and for all had my son evaluated by Dr. Stanley Greenspan who said he was not on the spectrum. Only then could I finally relax and trust what I KNEW in my heart all the time.
However, before this eval, the school wanted to place my son in a special ed class. He NEEDED it they told me. After the eval, surprise, surprise, the SD said he no longer needed the special class.
Kristina Chew, PhD
Jul 25, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Nothing to be fear in an autism diagnosis, or when there is late talking—–because there is a lot that can be done, and if getting a suggestion of a diagnosis leads to starting speech therapy and other educational therapies, this can be well.
@Jodi,
And one might especially wish for more consistency in regard to school districts who evaluate children, versus physicians and other medical professionals who have been trained to evaluate a child based on ADOS and the other tests suggested.
One wonders too about reports of “recovered” children: Perhaps their diagnosis was not accurate.
Karen
Jul 25, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Well put, Jane!
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